Bigotry is intersectional. You know damn well what people are trying to say, and what hateful bullshit they’re responding to.
When some redcap uses “Muslim” as a synecdoche for spitting out middle-eastern stereotypes, they’re not engaging in comparative religious criticism, or making some grand philosophical argument. They’re being a racist asshole. Even if the label they use is not a race. If you haven’t noticed - racist assholes love tiny excuses to say ‘what’s so racist about–?!’ whatever dehumanizing caricature they just attributed to some associated label. Like “thugs.” Or “bankers.”
Bankers aren’t an ethnicity… but people screaming about “bankers controlling the media” are definitely talking about an ethnicity.
When some redcap uses “Muslim” as a synecdoche for spitting out middle-eastern stereotypes, they’re not engaging in comparative religious criticism, or making some grand philosophical argument.
This is true, but when I’m having a discussion about religion and I feel like I’m done criticizing christianity and move on to islam for a bit, people shouldn’t say “woah, that sounds a bit racist”, and some people still do. I’m very left leaning but I have to say it’s mostly people who consider themselves progressive or left leaning, who have trouble separating these things.
Do you often find yourself in “discussions about religion” where your primary contribution is to complain about Christianity and Islam?
Do you also criticize Judaism? Zoroastrianism? Buddhism?
Or is it just those two?
I’ve never met a Zoroastrian and I’d bet you haven’t either.
Buddhism in the experience of any Anglophone is likely to be pleasant metaphysical nothings.
Judaism is more often the target of hatred than its source, and while that balance swings precipitously for Orthodox communities, they’re few and far between.
The simple fact of the matter is - Christianity is overwhelmingly what fucks with English-speaking nations 24/7, and Islam only sticks out for some extremely specific events. Do I need an on-record opinion of Mongol animistic faith and Bantu shamanic ritual before I’m allowed to talk shit about apostasy and Leviticus?
Do you ever find yourself in discussions about religion where the topics of discussion include Zoroaster?
I have actually met a Zoroastrian and had some fascinating conversations about their religion. I would never practice their religion, nor do I particularly care for organized religion, but I’m glad I got to meet and talk to them because it helped me understand a personal experience I would never untake.
Judaism is often the target of hatred, these days, because of anti-semites. Not because of debates about the merits of the religion. Those debates are primarily held internally - you know, amongst people who actually know and care about the religion.
Have you ever met a Muslim?
Yes, of fucking course I have. Not that it would have any bearing on my ability to talk shit about enshrined dogma or free-range woo-woo nonsense. Nor would it absolve me, if I started labeling those engineers according to the beliefs of AK-wielding maniacs.
Congratulations on identifying antisemitism as bigotry. Apply that to Islam and you’ll find the topic of this discussion. ‘Islam is often the target of hatred, not on the merits of the religion, but because of bigoted assholes.’
People who are criticizing the religion itself have to distinguish themselves from those assholes. It takes additional effort. Audiences expecting it’s all insincere cover for bigotry is not ideal, but it’s better than letting racists make flimsy excuses.
People whose only contribution is religious criticism are doing nothing wrong.
For the Muslims I have known, I respect their right to practice whatever nonsense they like. But. I respect them. Their religion is nonsense, as all religions are nonsense. Any positive experience exists in spite of their holy text saying, in black and white, that the AK-wielding maniacs have the right idea. I have endless vitriol for morons who insist all Muslims must believe blah blah blah, because, plainly not. But the most defanged version of any Abrahamic faith is still really fucked up. And that wide base of wishy-washy support is a constant shield and breeding-ground for the diehard violent loons.
‘This is the unquestionable word of the creator of the universe, but ehhh don’t take it too seriously’ is a hard sell.
Uh huh.
Well I have met and talked to several Muslims in my life. Religion only really came up for a couple of them, because you know, they’re just people going through their lives like anyone else and religion doesn’t often come up in polite company unless you’re a part of their religion. But there are a few I’ve gotten to know well enough to feel comfortable about asking.
Anyway, after some expected hesitancy, and some convincing that I’m just curious about their experiences, everyone I’ve talked to explained that their experience of islam is very peaceful and compassionate and gives them a sense of belonging and community. One asked about my own experiences with religion, which made them feel lucky to have found a good community. I said I had found other communities and was fine. And after that day, I felt like we understood eacj other a little better than before.
I knew a Sikh woman once, so wore the whole garb even though she lived in America. I asked her how she felt about the garb, and expected something something sacred religious whatever. But she surprised me by saying she felt the garb was a form of expression for her, an identity, and also made her felt safer - this was before 9/11. She said it was her choice to wear it and wore it proudly. And that really gave me the context I needed to break out of my biases about Islam and accept that we all do wierd shit, religious or otherwise, and that’s not only okay, it makes us unique and interesting.
When I look at the replies on this post, I see a lot of confusion, a lot of anger, a lot of hatred, and a lot of circlejerking. And rightly so, because there’s no context to this post. No, criticizing Islam isn’t always racist but it really depends on the context and the individuals receiving it.
OP is repeating the same dangerous rhetoric that I see across all sides of disagreement - but is always connected to bigotry: “I should be allowed to criticize without being criticized.” I can’t deny the appeal of such a request but it’s unreasonable. OP is absolutely allowed to say whatever he wants. But his audience is also free to respond and interpret.
The thing is, when you send negativity out into the world, you get it back. And if OP isn’t ready for that, maybe he should find more positive messages to send.
Edit: whoops I called someone both a muslim and sikh. She converted so my mind for some reason conflated the two.
I totally agree with a lot of what you’ve said, but I do have a quick question cos I think maybe I’m confused. You met a Muslim woman who was Sikh? I thought they were two different religions!
You can criticize one bad thing without criticizing every other example of that bad thing. I don’t need to go through the list of every Republican president just to talk about how bad Trump was. I don’t need to go through the list of every serial killer to talk about how evil John Wayne Gacy was.
Christianity and Islam are the world’s two biggest religions. Obviously, discussions about them will come up more than discussions about other religions in many parts of the world. “Yeah, but what about the Zoroastrians?” doesn’t really make much headway in such discussions and isn’t really relevant to them.
I mean, how often are discussions about Islam “coming up” in your daily life?
Is your only contribution to those “discussions” to criticize the religion?
Not often but sometimes and no not always. Maybe you don’t know me as well as you think you do.
I don’t know you at all, just asking probing questions that people sometimes forget to think about while spending their so much of their brief moments of human connection spouting anger and hatred. That’s all.
You asked loaded questions which, just based on context, clearly had answers you thought you already knew.
Do you often find yourself in “discussions about religion” where your primary contribution is to complain about Christianity and Islam?
I live in Denmark where Christianity is the biggest religion, so it’s the one I have had shoved down my throat the most, which makes it the most obvious to criticize (because it’s the one I know the most about). As many people know Denmark has been on the news a lot lately because of people burning books. This has been a major topic in the Danish media even before the story spread across the world, so it’s been something I’ve debated on the regular the last couple of years as well. Those debates have mostly focused on the book burners though, and my criticism would be limited to something like “it’s just a book”. This is why I mentioned those two religions in my original post.
I don’t know much about Zoroastrianism or Buddhism, so I wouldn’t know what to criticize. The same pretty much goes for Judaism, though I guess I know a bit more about that religion, seeing as Christianity is mostly built upon the Jewish scriptures.
Those debates have mostly focused on the book burners though, and my criticism would be limited to something like “it’s just a book”.
That’s not really a criticism of the religion though. Actually, it’s a criticism of people of that religion being angry about people from another religion slighting their own, which is more an opinion on book burning (which I vehemently disagree with mostly for reasons related to historical preservation) than anything to do with religion.
The reason I ask is that this post seems to imply that you are having conversations with friends when suddenly, " you know what grinds my gears? Christianity! Oh and by the way, fuck those Muslims too!" And negative Atheism is often an excuse for bigotry.
Covering the big three: Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism generally gets majority of the current worst offenders. But notes about the extremists version of Judaism, Buddhism, and other should be made too.
extremists version of Judaism, Buddhism
Um excuse me?
Covering the big three: Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism generally gets majority of the current worst offenders.
Yes, and I’m sure your point-by-point take downs of each of these are all the rage in college campuses everywhere. I’m sure nobody rolls their eyes at all when you launch into another diatribe about how Hinduism is destroying the world.
I personally criticise all religions in which the deity is purported to be omnipotent and omnibenevolent. Because those two things are directly opposed to each other for a deity in our world.
Cool beans
In your discussions about Islam, do you confine your criticism to Islam as a religion, or do you branch off into the political and social roles that Islam plays and their negative contributions towards human development (sorry if I am making assumptions)?
If it is the latter, it is an incomplete picture unless you talk about how what we now consider the Muslim world was pushed into being such through the systemic disassembly of moderate Islam and secular third world movements because they were seen as less disruptive to the international order than the potentially Soviet-aligned movements? The Islamic Republic in Iran didn’t come out of nowhere, after all. You’re not talking about Islam per se at that point, but a forced move of political radicalization that was looking for any carrier it could use.
In your discussions about Islam, do you confine your criticism to Islam as a religion, or do you branch off into the political and social roles that Islam plays and their negative contributions towards human development (sorry if I am making assumptions)?
This depends on who I’m talking to. I don’t usually steer the debate towards politics my self because I don’t feel like I’m well enough informed about foreign politics to start that particular debate. However one of my friends with whom I often have deep discussions is from Iran, and he loves debating the political side of what is going on there lately, so when I’m talking to him, the political and social roles of Islam is regularly touched upon. If I’m talking to someone who doesn’t have a greater knowledge of the political side than I do, I try to keep it about the religion. If I’m going to debate something I know little or nothing about, I prefer if the other person does know something about it, so they can correct me if I make dumb assumptions because of my ignorance, and so I can learn a bit more and hopefully become less ignorant with time.
Edit: a word
I think that the media is controlled by people that are extremely wealthy, not just bankers and that some of them being Jewish has nothing to do with it.
I mean, do you think Islamophobia is rooted in theological disputes? The Christian nationalists who find common ground between Catholics, evangelicals, Eastern Orthodox, and Jews hate Muslims because of their almost indistinguishable tenets of faith?
Yep. While technically being an Islamophobe isn’t racist, odds are the reason one is an Islamophobe has very little to do with them being Islamic.
Also, the hateful person does not care to distinguish between race, ethnicity, religion, or whatever other aspect they decide to hate. They have classified some attributes as making people not like them and hateable. The framework of analysis you are using is immaterial to the racist. That is, they do care that they are Islamic, just not with any subtlety.
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I hate Islam. I’m not racist.
I also hate any religion that states unequivocally in their holy book that certain classes of people are less than others… which is a core tenet of Islamic and Christian beliefs.
I couldn’t actually tell you if it’s in the Tanakh, but it very well wouldn’t surprise me.
Any positive experience and interaction I have with a Muslim is in spite of their beliefs and their religion being a bit backwards in places.
Edit: I also hate any religion that preaches that people are inherently evil or unworthy of salvation… that shit is toxic af.
I’m content to shit all over your religion regardless of your ethnicity.
Neat. What about the aforementioned religious nutjobs? You think they’re engaged in sincere criticism of specific textual and cultural dogma? Because generally it looks like they’re just being prejudiced assholes.
No different. Their religions are all trash. Do you have one? It’s trash too. The only culture of religion is to do what you’re told and not ask questions. That’s trash.
That wasn’t the question.
We know your motivations. What about those religious nutjobs?
What do you mean? That kind are vocal about their motivations and are more often than not quite brazen in their actions. To them their religion is just a vehicle for their hate. They don’t hide it. They’ve been out for years now.
‘Bigots love admitting they’re bigots,’ says someone confused.
Fool belives someone is watching over them say an idiot who refuses to grow up.
Uh, you sure about the Jews there bud? I don’t recall many Christian nationalists having a particularly high opinion of Judaism. In fact I’d say they hate Jews more than they hate muslims
Have you never tried a Hebrew National? Shit is lit.
They fucking love Israel, though.
Go on. Tell me that’s not directly about Judaism, as a religion. Tee it up for a direct comparison.
It’s not directly about Judaism. It’s directly about their Christian belief that the Temple needs to be rebuilt in Jerusalem for Jesus to return.
And then all the Jews get thrown into Hell.
They care about Israel because it’s a tool for them. The Jews can go fuck themselves once they’ve done their job as far as they’re concerned.
Uh huh. And their opinions about Islam aren’t really about Islam; they’re just a tool for talking about brown people. Thanks for playing along.
You literally said:
Go on. Tell me that’s not directly about Judaism, as a religion.
And I told you that and why. So I’m not sure what your deal is now.
… what’s the next sentence, after that.
Again- you asked for something. I gave you what you asked. Now you’re bitching about it.
I mean, it is the same for everyone, we all know what happens when a religion you’re not part of takes control. Religious people are simply hypocritical about it, but they’re sort of justified. The Catholics took over the USA due to immigration and it worried the protestants back then, it could very well happen with another religion.
edit: a word
The Catholics took over the USA due to immigration
When the hell are you talking about?
The shift from a Protestant majority to a more diverse religious landscape, including Catholicism, began in the mid-19th century.
Protestants are Christian. Did you mean Catholics?
Yes, good catch!
In my opinion the comparison to anti catholic sentiment is pretty apt. “Yeah it’s not racism. we’re just worried that they have an allegiance to a foreign pope before their own country and also Irish and Italians don’t count as white. But yeah no racism here”
I think the OP is wrong and dumb.
People can agree and hate each other. Both Taiwan and China agree that there is one government for the Chinese people. Two people can both in love with the same person, and an both believe that the person is amazing and should be dating exclusively. I have gotten into a few spates with my wife about how to raise our children and we both agree that we love our children and want the best. I had a roommate once where we both agreed the dishes should be done every night by one of us.
We can disagree and still love each other unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist.
-James Baldwin
Discriminating and/or being mean to Muslims is not cool. Thinking their religion is fucking stupid is cool. Same goes for the other religions.
Religion is part of identity. You can’t make fun of someone’s religion without also making fun of them for being stupid enough to believe it.
Not to mention that the profoundly religious associate everything they do as acting in accordance with scripture. So by making a mockery of their faith, you are by extension the enemy of all that is good and just, and there’s no difference in intent from their perspective.
That’s why you can never try to reason with people who are religious. If they’re going to interpret it that way anyways, may as well meet them at their level and accept the situation for what it is.
I don’t think religious people are stupid per se for being religious, but I do think in most cases that they lost a crucial opportunity in childhood to form independant opinions and rational thought.
You make some good points though re trying to reason with religious people. Aside from the deep, deep lifelong programming… there’s a little voice in the back of their mind that must be silenced, because it would be incredibly damaging to their psyche to realise they’ve tied themselves & their lives to something false.
I don’t disagree with any of that. However, deconversion does happen past childhood in some cases, thankfully.
You can say the same about any ideology and conviction. But, it is clearly false. Questioning dogmas is nearly the ONLY way to put people into rational path. Yes, most of them refuse, but some of them will. There are a lot of people who got helped by others questioning their dogmas. You also will help yourself when you question yours.
Religion is part of identity. You can’t make fun of someone’s religion without also making fun of them for being stupid enough to believe it.
Don’t sell yourself short. I know exactly what it is like being brought up religious and I have many people close to me who are devout, you can manage if I can. I feel bad with people infected with the mind virus. I want to help them. They are just as wise, as smart, as good as I am. The difference is, by pure luck, I am less infected than they are.
It takes around 20 seconds to find the first logical fallacy in the Bible. So no, they’re not as wise and smart.
I don’t recall getting any smarter or wiser when I left.
I don’t recall becoming any smarter than when I was 15, yet when looking back I can clearly see it being so.
I mean, that’s certainly not exclusive to religion. If you can’t reason with anybody who identifies as part of group there’s really not a lot of people left.
You’re generalising behaviour too much. Many people just accept that you feel differently.
Not everyone is radicalised.
My sister is my best friend, but what you talked about has been a real problem for us ever since I dropped Christianity. I only told her I don’t believe anymore pretty recently, so we’re still figuring out how to talk about religion and god (which is a very big deal for her) while we both disagree. It’s tricky, but we always figure stuff like this out. She’s quite open-minded, especially for a religious person, and that helps a ton. It’s still tricky though
Not all bigotry is racist. I don’t think mocking Islam is bigoted, but holy fuck can it be sometimes.
Its like the saying “I couldn’t give you a dictionary definition of porn but I know it when I see it”
I couldn’t explain to you what the differences between one asshole making fun of Islam and a racist doing it but I sure as shit know it when I see it
Seems straightforward: don’t talk shit about all Muslims and pretend it’s criticism of Islam. If you’re railing against specific dogma, go wild. If you’re insisting all seven hundred million believers must fanatically share that dogma, fuck off. Divisions within the faith are kind of contentious. Projecting third-hand knowledge of al-Shawarma militants onto Ali Patel from accounting is naked prejudice.
That goes double if you’re just muttering about “Islamism” because Al wears a turban.
I love a good al-Shawarma. Delicious.
I think you cross the line
oncewhen it’s not critical and just spiteful.One of them is motivated by a rational dislike of religious delusion and oppressive thinking, the other one is motivated by its own brand of religious delusion and oppressive thinking.
“I know it when I see it” (formerly an actual Supreme Court doctrine) is kind of an embarrassing cop-out from thinking hard enough about something to actually define it, no judgment at you or anything, more in terms of “I cannot believe they decided First Amendment cases on that bullshit basis”.
Singling out can be a form of xenophobia, in this case with the religion part simply being an excuse for it. You know, the way dogwhistles work. You don’t betray the prejudiced part, you say something which technically you can argue for. Playing innocent saves the day again.
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Race is not an idea.
What is race if not an idea then?
Consider dogs, for example, there are different breeds. Thats not an idea.
An idea would be if dogs believed in something.
Apply that to humans. Suceed!
But there are not different breeds of humans. The differences in DNA between races is not enough to be statistically significant, meaning there is no scientific basis for race.
Never said there were different breeds of humans.
Thinking Islam is a race is racist.
Talking about Islam in a mocking way might not be considered racist, but it can definitely be offensive or disrespectful. Racism is more about discriminating against people based on their race or ethnicity, while religion involves beliefs. Still, making fun of any religion, including Islam, can hurt people’s feelings. It’s important to be mindful of how our words affect others and to have conversations that are respectful and understanding. While we have the right to debate and express opinions, it’s good to approach these talks with empathy and consider how they might impact people emotionally.
Why does this sound like chatgpt generated it?
Because you’re trying to discredit it
No, it really has the recognizable ChatGPT writing style to it.
What is recognizable? Point it out to me.
The tone, sentence structure, content
Point it out to me. If it’s so scrutable you should have handed examples.
How did that op sound like an AI?
Prompt: “Is it racist to make fun of Islam.”
Chatgpt:
Making fun of any religion, including Islam, can be considered disrespectful and offensive to believers. It’s important to treat all religions with sensitivity and respect to promote understanding and harmony among different communities. Keep in mind that cultural and religious differences should be approached with empathy and consideration for the feelings of others.
Making fun of any religion, including Islam, can be considered disrespectful and offensive to believers. It’s important to treat all religions with sensitivity and respect to promote understanding and harmony among different communities. Keep in mind that cultural and religious differences should be approached with empathy and consideration for the feelings of others.
It’s the sentence structure at the end… The call for empathy and the consideration of others feelings. Chatgpt is programmed to respond in this way on “controversial” topics.
Edit:
Also, to answer your question. Bless your heart. I am not trying to discredit anything. I am trying to figure out if it’s a bot and if I need to ban it from the community and report it to the admins… Sweetheart, you know it’s not nice to be so aggressive in your accusations right?
Oh honey, bless you, you’re so sweet
Because it is 😂
I appreciate the vote of confidence but these have been demonstrated to be extremely inaccurate.
I have Asperger’s
Interesting.
I don’t know if that answers the question or not, but it’s interesting to note.
Mocking an attribute of a group, rather than the group directly, can still be racist.
All racism is bigotry, but not all bigotry is racism.
To say that Islam is a race is racist.
Insulting ideas isn’t bigotry. Insulting all of the people who have those ideas, because of those ideas is bigotry not racism.
Other than you assume folks are Muslim because they are brown, yeah, sure, wahtever.
Where did they do that?
Everywhere they claim it isn’t racism. Sure calling it bigotry resolves any question, but the point is to avoid the Racist connotation of singling out Islam. Much like Vanilla Ice didn’t remove the Racist element from condemnation of Rap.
When people make something stupid their identity, and I call the stupid thing stupid, and they feel offended, that is not on me.
ahem
Muslims are an oppressed race of people
Is this sarcasm or are you serious?
My brother, did you even look at the meme?
What, do I have to drop a stupid ass /s every time I make a joke? Of course I’m not being serious.
Hah. Fair. But have you seen the rest of the comments? There are a lot of sweaty serious people here.
That is also fair. I usually don’t scroll too far down because I’ve noticed the further down I scroll, the more likely I am to let impulse take over.
When that happens, I get stuck in an internet argument for like a week and a half.
If it’s only Islam and not other religions it is, if it’s all religions it’s just anti-theism
Even if it was just Islam that still wouldn’t make Islam a race
Jews are just as bad, had this argument a few month ago on that shit site (fuck spez) as soon as I pointed something out the first reaction was you’re racist! Sorry but Religion ≠ Race
A person can be ethnically Jewish though. Arab is also an ethnic group. Both groups have a religion that is typically associated with them. But not all Jews follow Judaism and not all Arabs follow Islam.
Religion does not equal race. If your comments were directed at a religion then they weren’t racist. If your comments were directed at an ethnic group then they may have been racist.
To be clear, criticizing Judaism is not racist.
I know, I was more talking about what most people consider
