Hyprland is an open source Wayland compositor based on wlroots, a project I started back in 2017 to make it easier to build good Wayland compositors. It’s a project which is loved by its users for its emphasis on customization and “eye candy” – beautiful graphics and animations, each configuration tailored to the unique look and feel imagined by the user who creates it. It’s a very exciting project!

Unfortunately, the effect is spoilt by an incredibly toxic and hateful community. I cannot recommend Hyprland to anyone who is not prepared to steer well clear of its community spaces. Imagine a high school boys’ locker room come to life on Discord and GitHub and you’ll get an idea of what it’s like.

I empathise with Vaxry. I remember being young, smart, productive… and mean. I did some cool stuff, but I deeply regret the way I treated people. It wasn’t really my fault – I was a product of my environment – but it was my responsibility. Today, I’m proud to have built many welcoming communities, where people are rewarded for their involvement, rather than coming away from their experience hurt. What motivates us to build and give away free software if not bringing joy to ourselves and others? Can we be proud of a community which brings more suffering into the world?

Update: Response from Vaxry, Hyprland Developer

  • starman@programming.devEnglish
    139·
    10 months ago

    As someone on HackerNews said:

    I’ve never felt the need for any “community” for my window manager of choice

    • phario@lemmy.caEnglish
      75·
      10 months ago

      Hmmm. If abuse happens, is the right idea to say that “I don’t need this community”?

      I’m not sure how that HackerNews comment helps in the slightest. If my university has an obscure basket weaving community and people are getting abused in that community, should I just say “Eh we don’t actually need a basket weaving community”.

      It’s also amusing to me that a commenter on a relatively obscure and niche website is complaining that that don’t need (or care about abuse that transpired on) a niche community from another website. And then this comment is echoed in yet another niche community.

      • RaivoKulli@sopuli.xyz
        49·
        10 months ago

        “You shouldn’t use this window manager because their community is toxic”

        “I’m not going to interact with the community”

        Seems fair enough

      • starman@programming.devEnglish
        25·
        10 months ago

        I just wanted to point out that it’s ridiculous to form some kind religion¹ around a wayland compositor.

        Also, I don’t want anybody to think I’m supporting what’s happening there. I just don’t really care about Hyprland’s community because I’m not part of it.

        ¹Hyprland’s discord server is named “Church of Hyprland”

    • wispydust@sh.itjust.works
      13·
      10 months ago

      Hmm, I feel like there’s some nuances around Hyprland (and it’s kind of window managers) that makes having a place for discussion valuable.

      • Plugin development discussions
      • Configuration recipes and troubleshooting (Configs for tiling wm’s often are like 500-line software projects)
      • …and sometimes its just fun to chat with like-minded people who share a similar philosophy on the tools they use on their computers

      I’m not a hyprland user, but I find it valuable to lurk around SwayWM communities on Discord and Reddit.

    • Floey@lemm.ee
      8·
      10 months ago

      That’s great for you but that might not be true for someone you recommend it to, or decides to give it a try after you mention you use it. Someone might go looking for help or tips there.

      • dingleberry@discuss.tchncs.de
        1·
        10 months ago

        File a bug, read FAQ, StackOverflow? If you are messing around with window managers on Linux, a certain level of competency is expected. However, I’m more concerned about the weirdos hanging around in a discord chat of said window manager, harassing strangers. Such a strange hobby.

  • sky@codesink.ioEnglish
    122·
    10 months ago

    [A trans person] joined the Discord server and made a big deal out of their pronouns […] because they put their pronouns in their nickname and made a big deal out of them because people were referring to them as “he” [misgendering them], which, on the Internet, let’s be real, is the default.

    Damn I didn’t know women didn’t exist on the internet! Also “making a big deal out of ones pronouns” is almost never the case, it’s always just a normal request for the respect of addressing someone properly.

    • KSP Atlas@sopuli.xyz
      11·
      10 months ago

      Does drew not know about the existence of singular they? I use that unless i know their gender properly

      • drspod@lemmy.ml
        35·
        10 months ago

        These are not Drew’s words, he is quoting something said by the project dev. The context that the previous commenter ommitted is:

        Following my email conversation with Vaxry, he appeared on a podcast to discuss toxicity in the Hyprland community. This quote from the interview clearly illustrates the attitude of the leadership:

        [A trans person] joined the Discord server and made a big deal out of their pronouns […] because they put their pronouns in their nickname and made a big deal out of them because people were referring to them as “he” [misgendering them], which, on the Internet, let’s be real, is the default. And so, one of the moderators changed the pronouns in their nickname to “who/cares”. […] Let’s be real, this isn’t like, calling someone the N-word or something.

    • _cnt0@feddit.de
      25·
      10 months ago

      […] the lead dev seems to be a fucking idiot.

      How so? I mean, I am tempted to agree. Reaching out to that unofficial community to improve their conduct instead of just ignoring them is pretty idiotic. But, are you sure you’ve read the linked page and understood its content?

      I didn’t pay attention when reading the linked page. Its author is/was the creator of wlroots, not hyprland. He reached out to the lead dev of hyprland which is very much associated with the discord community. I got so much wrong reading that …

      Sorry for being contrarian.

      • Aatube@kbin.social
        19·
        10 months ago

        They mean the hyprland lead dev, not the dev in the article. In fact the lead dev brushed off the who/cares thing in a podcast and compared himself to Terry Davis.

        • _cnt0@feddit.de
          5·
          10 months ago

          Looks like I didn’t understood what I read. I should have paid more attention.

        • just another dev@lemmy.my-box.devEnglish
          35·
          10 months ago

          To be fair, as a dev, I wouldn’t want to bother with that either, and much rather hand that stuff over to a moderator or a community manager. Then again, I’d also wouldn’t run a discord or a forum for those exact same reasons.

          • aksdb@feddit.de
            12·
            10 months ago

            Dito. I would want to deal with technical problems, not social ones. If people start to fight over social norms in my technical community, I would advise them to take that elsewhere. (Of course same if people behave like assholes.)

            Then again I wouldn’t create a fucking discord “server” for a technical topic in the first place.

        • _cnt0@feddit.de
          5·
          10 months ago

          I got a lot wrong initially reading that blog post (updated my comment accordingly). Though, I can sympathize with what he’s saying in that screenshot specifically. If I did maintain a popular open source project I’d rather completdly remove the social aspect than try and manage it.

      • ToroidalX@lemmy.world
        1·
        9 months ago

        Out of topic, but damn, this is what I like about Lemmy. Just people admitting their mistakes and people moving on without making a fuss. I missed this so much. Reddit is extremely toxic and is hard to see when you are inside

  • woelkchen@lemmy.world
    83·
    10 months ago

    the moderators of the Discord server engaged in a harassment campaign against a transgender user, including using their moderator privileges to edit the pronouns in their username from “they/she” to “who/cares”

    Well, apparently those moderators care. Why else edit it?

    • RiikkaTheIcePrincess@kbin.social
      37·
      10 months ago

      They like to make a show like everyone on Earth is just like they are so how dare we exist differently but it’s clearly just them being hateful. Idunno how bigots manage to still think they’re clever and totally not insecure whilst making self-contradictory statements and raging over nonsense and trivia for hours at a time, often in spaces where they’re not even welcome.

  • deadcade@lemmy.deadca.de
    75·
    10 months ago

    I can personally vouch for how toxic the Discord server and its moderators/admins are. Went there for support (Hyprland was crashing on startup on AMD, sway worked fine), and was told something along the lines of “if you can’t figure this out you’re stupid and you should stop using Linux”. Figured out the issue on my own and stopped using and recommending Hyprland after that.

    • d6GeZtyi@lemmy.world
      5·
      10 months ago

      I empathize a lot with this comment.

      In tech (though I would guess as in many other technical domains), many people do seem to easily bully people for not knowing things or making mistakes. I’m guessing it’s just people having high insecurities themselves, it’s even more of an ego thing when considering that computer things are considered as a “nerd” pastime (a group considering itself “smart”). Not knowing things - even things that we would have thought are really simple - should be OK on an help channel as long as you’re not abusing the helpers’ patience.

      I’ve been a witness of these situation countless times, the sane way of handling this for me have been to just consider that these are mostly people externalizing their poor self esteem and to just continue conversation (at worst with the other people) as normal.

    • piexil@lemmy.world
      4·
      10 months ago

      Vaxry’s themselves does this all the time. He’s an asshole. Like I get OSS developers don’t owe anyone anything, but some people think that means they can be an asshole to their users for no reason too.

      Just look at this for example. Someone asked a clarifying question and Vaxry basically said “stop making noise”. Ironically producing more noise instead of just, idk, answering them? https://github.com/hyprwm/Hyprland/issues/1817

    • vildis@lemmy.dbzer0.com
      2·
      10 months ago

      I wonder if this comes from the only help / discussion being on Discord which has an infamously horrible search feature.

      A forum could even be indexed by search engines so no need for:

      1. A discord account
      2. Annoying the developers with frequently asked questions
  • Fizz@lemmy.nz
    65·
    10 months ago

    All this over some discord server drama. I cant blame the dev for wanting to code and not waste his time moderating.

    • RegalPotoo@lemmy.worldEnglish
      50·
      10 months ago

      Then don’t run a discord instance?

      “Hey, the server is getting pretty toxic and I can’t be bothered moderating it - this is no longer an official communication channel, I’m not going to be hanging out here anymore, if you need help ask in the GitHub discussion forum”

    • whoareu@lemmy.ca
      32·
      10 months ago

      It’s the developer’s responsibility to moderate the discord server properly.

      • sado1@kbin.social
        18·
        10 months ago

        It’s the moderation staff’s responsibility. Sorry for nitpicking, I understand in this case it’s likely the same people.

        I just get triggered when I hear that an open source software developer should have any responsibilities at all (maybe apart from some extreme examples), and I wouldn’t like this idea to stick in anyone’s head.

        • TehPers@beehaw.orgEnglish
          5·
          10 months ago

          I agree, open source devs don’t owe anyone anything (unless they’re accepting commissions or something). Also, generally speaking, being a good developer does not translate to being a good community moderator. There should be no expectation of the latter.

        • Zangoose@lemmy.one
          3·
          10 months ago

          The developer doesn’t owe us anything, but if they’re creating an online community like Discord there are inherent responsibilities that come with that. If they don’t want to moderate, then they shouldn’t create a Discord/Matrix/Whatever server.

          Just like how even if the developer doesn’t owe us anything, that doesn’t mean it’s fine for them to push malware as an update to their previously fine code after they’ve established trust.

    • ReversalHatchery@beehaw.org
      21·
      10 months ago

      That douchebag can’t even moderate himself. I wasn’t considering trying out hyprland, but after this I wouldn’t feel safe running his code on any of my computers. I can imagine that it would do some “prank” if it found out that I’m thinking differently

  • 👁️👄👁️@lemm.eeEnglish
    51·
    10 months ago

    this guy just learned about discord general chats lol

    they’re all this bad, and also they’re absolutely dogshit for open source software so I have no idea why people make them

    • moonpiedumplings@programming.dev
      13·
      10 months ago

      I’m in the max server limit, 100 right now, and many of those are people who treat discord as github, which is so annoying (but many projects are of questionable legality, like Dan’s palace which makes and distributes completed android and vita ports of other games for free).

      One time I got excited since there was announcement for the half life 2 android source port discord. I thought it was a big update or maybe a new game, but what I saw was something like:

      the memes channel is for memes, not child porn

      It’s just discord that has these issues. Matrix or IRC don’t have these problems. Discord just creates a kind of culture that fosters this stuff.

  • SirPlus@lemmy.world
    44·
    10 months ago

    The guy who develops hyprland is a known transphobe, I’m surprised this is just now coming out.

    • intrepid@lemmy.ca
      29·
      10 months ago

      That usually isn’t a problem as long as they keep it to themselves and away from the community. There are many Foss developers who are like that - they don’t cause a controversy. This one seems to be different and openly toxic.

    • RegalPotoo@lemmy.worldEnglish
      57·
      10 months ago

      Because it’s important to call people out for their bullshit and not tacitly approve of it by keeping quiet?

        • drislands@lemmy.world
          20·
          10 months ago

          I generally agree that it’s not necessary to bring unrelated problems into a space.

          But this post reads like “this software is good but the community is not welcoming, I don’t recommend getting into either”. I think that’s valid.

            • Zangoose@lemmy.one
              5·
              10 months ago

              You’re still giving them a platform by installing their code though?

              If you use software coming from someone you inherently disagree with, especially a desktop environment/compositor, you depend on that person for your computer’s day-to-day functionality. Isn’t one of the key points of the FOSS community that we disagree with large controlling companies like Google and Microsoft? That, even when they make FOSS contributions, it should be taken with a huge grain of salt?

              Imo, this is the exact same thing. Even if it’s good software, not wanting to rely on code from someone you don’t agree with or trust (even if those concerns are unrelated to the given codebase) is completely reasonable and valid

                • Zangoose@lemmy.one
                  2·
                  10 months ago

                  Depending on something isn’t necessarily tied to how many alternatives there are.

                  For example: I use a heavily configured qtile setup on my desktop. I’m depending on that setup working every time I turn my computer on. Sure, I could switch to i3 or sway or Hyprland, but that would take a considerable amount of time and effort. In this case, I’m depending on qtile working for me, so I can get work done instead of messing with a bunch of config files. The only time this wouldn’t happen is when one solution can be a completely (or almost completely) drop-in replacement for the other, e.g. how sway claims to be with i3.

                  This is especially true with tiling window managers, where people spend many hours configuring setups to behave how they want. Moving to a different alternative isn’t exactly simple.

                  To your point about FOSS: chrome and android may not be FOSS, but as much as I dislike it AOSP and Chromium definitely are, even if Google controls the repos for both. Your definition is a slippery slope because by that definition software like Ubuntu, Manjaro, etc. also aren’t FOSS because the repos are controlled by a single company.

                  To your last point: telling someone else they shouldn’t use a piece of code for the same reason you don’t is also perfectly valid. It’s not like it’s an order, they don’t have to follow it. People can choose to agree or disagree with you if they want. Ultimately, the decision to install software in Linux lies with the user, and the most any online opinion can do is give a persuading or dissuading argument. Just like I could say, “don’t use this software, it’s built on some old deprecated library that will probably break in a month”, I could also say “don’t use this software, the main dev is a bad person because xyz…” and it would still be up to the user to make a decision. If you don’t mind disagreeing with the author of software you use, that’s fine, but not everyone is like that, and that’s also fine.

    • piexil@lemmy.world
      3·
      10 months ago

      If you use this software, You will likely come across the community, in at least a passive way. as this is a piece of software with extensive manual configuration. Most people will be reading blogs and forums to figure out their configuration.

    • 4anon@sh.itjust.works
      1·
      10 months ago

      They don’t care about software. I bet half of these people have never heard of this project. They just love stirring up drama because they are attention whores. This cancer must be kept out of foss.

  • beteljuice@lemmy.ml
    38·
    10 months ago

    I stopped using it because of a couple shitty interactions on Discord. I don’t know anything about the developer himself but the company he keeps sucks. Using the word “cucked” when talking about breaks in dependencies… and being told “see if I care” when pointing out a race condition I found in initialization that caused problems with multimonitor setups.

    No thanks. Sway works great. No need for eye candy.

      • FaeDrifter@midwest.socialEnglish
        52·
        10 months ago

        Yeahhh, he’s like “everything was taken out of context to smear me”, he shows the context and it doesn’t make him look any better.

        It’s a shame bc I really wanted to get into hyprland, but I won’t get involved with a project that is okay harassing people for being trans.

      • InstallGentoo@lemmy.zip
        22·
        10 months ago

        His response is perfectly rational. You need to stop getting offended over every small thing on the internet.

        • zwekihoyy@lemmy.ml
          60·
          10 months ago

          treating people respectfully is not getting offended. please touch some grass and open your eyes.

          • InstallGentoo@lemmy.zip
            14·
            10 months ago

            Did you read his response? These were a few small incidents blown out of proportion. Maybe grow a thicker skin?

            • zwekihoyy@lemmy.ml
              28·
              10 months ago

              that’s not really the point considering this didn’t occur in a vacuum. this one event can come to just be a grift and what I said will still be true.

              • InstallGentoo@lemmy.zip
                12·
                10 months ago

                I only have two things to say:

                1. Stop bringing your politics into free software and creating unproductive drama
                2. Stop being so fragile to get offended by random teenagers on the internet
            • Zangoose@lemmy.one
              3·
              10 months ago

              Maybe you’re right. Being “daycared” shouldn’t happen on the internet, it should be a prerequisite.

              People who default to stringing multiple slurs together for a response just to prove a point should just be banned on sight and sent back to daycare. Maybe they could learn something.

    • MBM@lemmings.world
      29·
      10 months ago

      The final bit is interesting. Vaxry says Q (who was openly bigoted) got punished, but doesn’t mention prisj (who was slightly less open about it).

      #general does indeed sometimes have jokes that some people might treat as “controversial”.

      And if you really need a place with controversial jokes, split it off from your support server or something.

  • xavier666@lemm.eeEnglish
    35·
    10 months ago

    Your first mistake was joining a Discord group for a software product. Github pages / bug-tracker or GTFO.

  • GenBlob@lemm.ee
    29·
    10 months ago

    It sucks that cool projects like hyprland are usually riddled with toxic weirdos that ruin it. It also sucks that there’s not much to choose in the wayland space that’s usable and actively developed but I refuse to use hyprland after seeing this.

    • TeryVeneno@lemmy.mlEnglish
      35·
      10 months ago

      You kinda left out the next line in which he says

      But it was my responsibility

      That’s the whole statement and tbh I agree. It’s never anyone’s fault for being a bad person, but it is 100% their responsibility to right their wrongs.

    • Zamundaaa@discuss.tchncs.de
      21·
      10 months ago

      The very next words are “but it was my responsibility”… what exactly is bad about that statement if you don’t intentionally cherry pick a bad quote?

    • squeakycat@lemmy.ml
      6·
      10 months ago

      Yeah, I’m not too fond of that statement. I respect ddevault, particularly since I have seen his serious growth into a mature, empathetic person. So ICM surprised that this made it into the post.