The works of the roots of the vines, of the trees, must be destroyed to keep up the price, and this is the saddest, bitterest thing of all. Carloads of oranges dumped on the ground. The people came for miles to take the fruit, but this could not be. How would they buy oranges at twenty cents a dozen if they could drive out and pick them up? And men with hoses squirt kerosene on the oranges, and they are angry at the crime, angry at the people who have come to take the fruit. A million people hungry, needing the fruit- and kerosene sprayed over the golden mountains. And the smell of rot fills the country. Burn coffee for fuel in the ships. Burn corn to keep warm, it makes a hot fire. Dump potatoes in the rivers and place guards along the banks to keep the hungry people from fishing them out. Slaughter the pigs and bury them, and let the putrescence drip down into the earth.
There is a crime here that goes beyond denunciation. There is a sorrow here that weeping cannot symbolize. There is a failure here that topples all our success. The fertile earth, the straight tree rows, the sturdy trunks, and the ripe fruit. And children dying of pellagra must die because a profit cannot be taken from an orange. And coroners must fill in the certificate- died of malnutrition- because the food must rot, must be forced to rot. The people come with nets to fish for potatoes in the river, and the guards hold them back; they come in rattling cars to get the dumped oranges, but the kerosene is sprayed. And they stand still and watch the potatoes float by, listen to the screaming pigs being killed in a ditch and covered with quick-lime, watch the mountains of oranges slop down to a putrefying ooze; and in the eyes of the people there is the failure; and in the eyes of the hungry there is a growing wrath. In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage.
John Steinbeck, The Grapes of Wrath
How does communism deal with overpopulation?
Overpopulation is a myth, and we only can’t feed and house the existing population because of capitalism, not because of lack of resources, exactly as the meme you’re responding to points out.
We are using far more resources as are regenerated. This is why the Earth overshoot Day is a thing. We are at almost 2x the resource usage that would be sustainable.
Lol ok, that’s still entirely down to and in service of capitalism, not some inevitability sent down from above or “human nature”, despite what they might have you believing… 🙄
“Lol”
Do people in capitalism need more resources? Why? How much more?
Because consumption greases the wheels of profit.
So of we just keep people poor… issue solved. Like someone in Africa or North Korea, they are not going to need more resources than what can be regenerated. Simply because they lack the means to do so.
If we assume a communism with the same level of technology, comfort, … how would we avoid the exact same issue? Why would people suddenly not drive their own car mostly alone? Heat their homes in winter, causing a big portion of global CO2 emissions by doing so?
So of we just keep people poor… issue solved. Like someone in Africa or North Korea, they are not going to need more resources than what can be regenerated. Simply because they lack the means to do so.
You’re missing the mark, here. I am specifically referring to things like fast-fashion, trinkets, new phones every year, and other goods pushed on consumers not for their convenience, but to satisfy Capitalists.
If we assume a communism with the same level of technology, comfort, … how would we avoid the exact same issue? Why would people suddenly not drive their own car mostly alone? Heat their homes in winter, causing a big portion of global CO2 emissions by doing so?
Socialism and Communism would be more focused on public transit and urbanized environments.
Remember when restaurants set police up to protect their dumpsters containing perfectly good and edible foods? Or was that grocery stores? Probably both.
When you satisfy the needs of your population, have cheap birth control and good sexual education (which was given in almost all socialist countries) people will naturally have fewer children. In poor countries people have the most children.
Under capitalism, people in many rich countries are panicking because fewer and fewer working people have to feed more and more elderly, even though we have the resources to easily meet their needs. But profits have to keep rising, so the shrinking working population has to be more and more productive. The superexploited growing populations in the global south are what keeps this system alive, so overpopulation is even encouraged under capitalism.
Overpopulation is a myth
It has never happened under communism.
Mao starved millions and Stalin murdered millions.
Let’s see how long until these true statements get banned like a book in Florida.
These are hardly good examples of communism, just like how modern day U.S. is a pretty poor example of capitalism. A capitalistic society shouldn’t prop up failing businesses using money taken from the workers. A failing business should just fail, yet they’ve been “rescued” time and time again, at the detriment of the people who don’t see those funds and keep being exploited for their labour.
True communism hasn’t ever been implemented, and I wouldn’t look to dictators as examples for how to do it. Dictatorships are incompatible with the fundamental ideas behind communism.
True communism hasn’t ever been implemented…
…at scale.
As the name might imply, “communes” (of e.g. the hippie persuasion) could be truly communist. Possibly some indigenous tribes, kibbutzim, the Paris Commune, Fristaden Christiania in Copenhagen, and various other intentional communities might qualify, too.
True, thank you for the correction.
There have absolutely been true and authentic attempts at building Communism, just via Socialism. Denouncing these Socialist states for not being able to yet achieve global Communism is anti-Marxist idealism.
I’m not arguing that the attempts haven’t been made, I’m saying that the end result, or status quo if you’d prefer, doesn’t align with intent. Intent isn’t irrelevant, but I don’t think it holds as much water as results.
Like @grue@lemmy.world said, communes have and do exist, and some form of communism has existed throughout history, and likely before it. The states we have today though don’t hold up to scrutiny.
The “end” result did align with the intent. The USSR, for example, never tried to jump straight to Communism. They were Marxists, they opted to go through Socialism.
Communism isn’t “doing Socialism for a while then collapsing into magical Communism arbitrarily.” It’s a long, drawn-out process of building towards Communism. Socialism wasn’t a temporary sacrifice, but a drastic improvement on previous conditions.
The states we have today have never identified their conditions as Communist, but as Socialist, with a stated goal of moving towards Communism.
Communes are Anarchist, not Marxist, so pretending only Communes have managed to accomplish what Marxist states set out to do is a drastic misunderstanding of Marxism, Communism, and Anarchism.
Your ignorance is clearly wilful, so this isn’t for you, but I’m just going to leave this here anyway:
https://medium.com/international-workers-press/misconceptions-about-communism-2e366f1ef51f
This is also greatly a misconception, redefining Communism to be anti-Marxist and pro-Anarchist is silly. Marxism is the largest and most historically relevent strain of Communist thought, denying that is pointlessly sectarian.
