35 crypto companies got together to make a change dot org petition called “Bitcoin Deserves an Emoji”.

F that

  • Chozo@fedia.io
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    230
    ·
    3 months ago

    I don’t mind there being an emoji for cryptocurrency. It’s a relevant thing in modern society whether we like it or not, so there’s no reason it should be excluded. But just not Bitcoin, specifically. Even though Bitcoin is the one that kicked off crypto, it’s still a brand name, which would result in auto-rejection according to the Unicode Consortium’s guidelines.

    If there was a more general-purpose icon/symbol that could represent cryptocurrency in general, that’d be more appropriate. But it can’t be Bitcoin.

    • WhatAmLemmy@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      25
      ·
      3 months ago

      I wouldn’t think Bitcoin has, or can, be trademarked or copyrighted, as it is an open-source protocol/technology where even the creator is unknown?

      Either way there isn’t a generic symbol for cryptocurrency. This emoji will go the way of the save icon, where in a couple generations most people will have no idea what it relates to, but know that it’s a symbol for cryptos.

      • Chozo@fedia.io
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        20
        ·
        edit-2
        3 months ago

        I wouldn’t think Bitcoin has, or can, be trademarked or copyrighted, as it is an open-source protocol/technology where even the creator is unknown?

        It’s still the name of a specific product/service. The issue is partly trademark/copyright, but also partly a matter of neutrality. The Unicode Consortium want to ensure that they’re not directly or indirectly endorsing any specific products. If they added a Bitcoin logo, then you’d see every other crypto lining up to get their logos permanently installed on every person’s devices, too. Free advertising for life on 99.99% of phones would be hard to pass up.

          • Scrollone@feddit.it
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            12
            ·
            3 months ago

            So, if there’s already a symbol in Unicode, the petition doesn’t make any sense. They should ask Google and Apple to display the symbol in the emoji list, with a control character to force it as emoji.

            • ricecake@sh.itjust.works
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              4
              ·
              3 months ago

              Totally. It’s double weird, because it’s not a petitionable issue, it’s a form where you make your case and a committee decides, and they already have the symbol and they just seem to want it to be usable like 💲, which isn’t a thing.

        • beeb@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          7
          ·
          3 months ago

          Surely the Tokyo tower is a specific product then? 🗼It costs money to visit, aren’t the other towers jealous?

          • magic_lobster_party@kbin.run
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            12
            ·
            3 months ago

            https://unicode.org/emoji/proposals.html#Faulty_Comparison

            The Tokyo Tower🗼(a specific building) does not justify adding the Eiffel Tower.

            Many historical emoji violate current factors for inclusion. Once an emoji is encoded it cannot be removed from the Unicode Standard.

            It was added when Unicode Consortium had different guidelines. They don’t accept specific buildings anymore.

            Under automatically declined:

            Specific buildings, structures, landmarks, or other locations, whether fictional, historic, or modern.

        • FaceDeer@fedia.io
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          3
          ·
          3 months ago

          It’s a specific type of thing, but it’s not a brand. Nobody owns the trademark for Bitcoin. Anyone can buy, sell, or mine Bitcoin. It’s no more a specific product than dollars are a specific product.

          If they added a Bitcoin logo, then you’d see every other crypto lining up to get their logos permanently installed on every person’s devices, too.

          Is there a problem with that? This isn’t “advertising”, these are unicode symbols. There are unicode symbols for all kinds of things. Every currency has unicode symbols, why not cryptocurrencies?

      • Phen@lemmy.eco.br
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        7
        ·
        3 months ago

        The creator of bitcoin is as unknown as batman’s identity. The folks at the center of the main blockchain companies and stuff like that all know pretty well who created it, they just play along with the story.

          • Phen@lemmy.eco.br
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            ·
            3 months ago

            Oh, there is. But while they keep this game up, there’s still plausible deniability for everything.

            • dhork@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              4
              ·
              edit-2
              3 months ago

              If whoever invented Bitcoin is still on this earth, they have a bit of a conundrum. Since we can track all transactions, and we know roughly how long Satoshi was mining the first bitcoins before other people got involved, those early accounts are sitting on over 1 million BTC. Even after today’s dump, that’s still over $50 billion. And for reference, the Koch family is 25th on Forbe’s infamous list, estimated to be worth about $56B. So that person is one of the richest people on the planet.

              However, those coins continue to remain unspent. And once they are moved in any transaction, the entire world will know. That leads to an inherent assumption that those 1M coins (out of 21M that can ever exist) must be irretrievably lost (due to their private keys being deleted), so most have taken that out of the active supply when estimating BTC value. Once they are moved, the price will probably crash – at least 5%, but more likely much more than that. He is among the richest people in the world on paper, but if he moves any of it his wealth will collapse.

              However, one doesn’t have to move coins to prove they own them. Anyone with the private keys could cryptographically sign a message saying “I am Satoshi” with one of the early keys and immediately have 100% credibility. The fact that this hasn’t happened means that those keys likely not longer exist. (I, personally, think Hal Finney took those keys to the grave with him, and Craig Wright is a big fat liar.)

              • AlDente@sh.itjust.works
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                2
                ·
                3 months ago

                No single wallet has even close to 1 million Bitcoins. It’s a public block chain and you can find a list of the largest wallets in a website like this: https://bitinfocharts.com/top-100-richest-bitcoin-addresses.html

                Also, regarding the unfair advantage of the genesis block, Bitcoin’s code was actually written in a way that prevents this balance from being transfered. It’s forever locked in the wallet at this address: 1A1zP1eP5QGefi2DMPTfTL5SLmv7DivfNa.

                • dhork@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  3 months ago

                  True, the Genesis Block is fixed, but it’s speculated that Satoshi did most of the mining during Bitcoin’s initial experiment. I have seen estimates online that the first 22k blocks were mined almost exclusively by Satoshi, all to different BTC addresses, 50 BTC each. Worth practically nothing back then but worth over 2.5M today. Every 10 minutes or so, Satoshi found another one.

    • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      13
      ·
      3 months ago

      Why in the world would you have “emojis” as part of Unicode anyway?

      We already have a way to have endless “emojis” without administrative stupidity, it’s called JPEG.

      If you need to show text as that, we’ve had smileys since 90s.

      • xthexder@l.sw0.com
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        28
        ·
        3 months ago

        Would you rather send an entire JPEG over text message for an emoji? Or just 4 bytes of unicode right inline where you want it? Unicode having a standard set of emoji is actually incredibly useful and reduces complexity. I guess it would disincentivize 👏 emoji 👏 spam 👏 to use JPEGs tho.

          • xthexder@l.sw0.com
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            ·
            3 months ago

            There’s even more use cases that come up, like being able to use emoji and other fancy symbols anywhere unicode is supported. So you can even program with them. People have taken that idea to the extreme just for fun: https://www.emojicode.org/

            • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              3 months ago

              Other special symbols are a different thing. For APL language or others.

              They are useful, provided you have them on your keyboard or you have configurable extra keys.

              Symbols specifically for emoji - I mean, people can do what they want with code space, even if I’d rather see another obscure alphabet standardized there. Medieval Armenian or Russian musical notation, for example. Something real .

      • interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        3 months ago

        Hmm, why do we need a corporation to be arbitter of the written language anyway ? If they want to use it, they should just use it.If they can’t because of some central authority then Unicode is is to be abolished and replace with a system where you can usev wherever squiggle that you want and nobody gets a second opinion. You just do it.

    • SorteKanin@feddit.dk
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      5
      ·
      edit-2
      3 months ago

      I don’t think it should have an emoji either, but how does this rule apply to real currencies being emojis? I mean there is dollar banknote 💵 and yen banknote 💴 and euro banknote 💶 as separate emojis, not just a general money one. And honestly, even most of the emojis referencing anything that has to do with money uses dollar signs, i.e. $. Were these rules made after these emojis were already added?

      • Chozo@fedia.io
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        6
        ·
        3 months ago

        I saw this get brought up a lot. I think the difference is that currency symbols generally don’t refer to a specific currency. USD and AUS both use the $ symbol, for example. “Dollar” and “American Dollar” aren’t the same thing since other types of dollars exist, and the symbols are still technically multi-purpose, whereas the ₿ symbol technically refers only to Bitcoin.

        That’s my theory on the reasoning, at least.

    • magic_lobster_party@kbin.run
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      5
      ·
      3 months ago

      The problem with having cryptocurrency as emoji is agreeing on the specification how it should be drawn, and also make it different enough from already existing emojis such as coin 🪙. It is not exactly a tangible thing.

      • Corkyskog@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        3 months ago

        Just make it the B symbol they use in the coin? None of the others would exist in their current fashion, without Bitcoin anyway.

        • Echo Dot@feddit.uk
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          3 months ago

          Bitcoin is a brand name there which means they can’t do that. Also if bitcoin deserves its own symbol (and I don’t think it necessarily does) then all the cryptocurrencies such as ethereum also deserve one.

        • technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          edit-2
          3 months ago

          Windows wouldn’t have existed without DOS so it’s logo should be the DOS logo. Likewise the USD emoji should be a pile of gold. \s

    • qaz@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      2
      ·
      3 months ago

      It makes a lot more sense to implement this the way country flags are implemented in Unicode.

  • magic_lobster_party@kbin.run
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    113
    ·
    3 months ago

    We also need a McDonald’s emoji, Pepsi emoji, Windows emoji and Mastercard emoji. These are also brands that are heavily ingrained in our culture. Probably even more so than Bitcoin.

    Or we accept that brands like Bitcoin shouldn’t use emoji as a marketing tool.

    • pyre@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      21
      ·
      edit-2
      3 months ago

      Probably even more so

      probably? shitcoin isn’t even in the same ballpark universe as something like McDonald’s or Pepsi.

      • technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        edit-2
        3 months ago

        Yeah McDonalds is based on torturing and murdering animals while destroying the planet… While bitcoin is only destroying the planet like the rest of capitalism.

    • floquant@lemmy.dbzer0.com
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      16
      ·
      3 months ago

      Since when is Bitcoin a brand lmao? I’m really struggling to see how it is comparable to McDonald’s or Windows. Having a logo does not make you a corporation

      • magic_lobster_party@kbin.run
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        31
        ·
        3 months ago

        The logo and name is the brand. How do you visually represent a specific payment protocol without using its logo? There’s no emoji for HTTP or TCP either.

        • deathbird@mander.xyz
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          ·
          3 months ago

          I’m actually for the idea of emojis for protocols. Not Bitcoin specifically because I don’t think it has long term potential as a deflationary virual asset, but block chain? Sure.

        • KⒶMⒶLⒶ WⒶLZ 2Ⓐ24@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          ·
          3 months ago

          while there may not be an emoji for http, maybe there should be. there is sort of an unofficial one (a broken lock), and there are other protocols that have logos. as another commenter said, it’s kind of silly to fight for an emojii for it, and probably sillier to fight against it.

          • Emerald@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            6
            ·
            3 months ago

            while there may not be an emoji for http, maybe there should be.

            No God, Please No!

            We don’t need another gzip or bzip2 logo. Lol

            • Mubelotix@jlai.lu
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              6
              ·
              3 months ago

              You think you can fool people by using a simple straw man argument technique? Come on, get your shit together. Bitcoin is infrastructure as anyone can submit transactions to the network and they will be seamlessly processed. As simple as that

              • RxBrad@infosec.pub
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                4
                ·
                3 months ago

                I know that shouting “straw man!” is the first step of trying to deflect from being wrong on the Internet… But if you’re going to do it, at least know what a straw man is.

                My argument is that “Infrastructure” != “anyone can do it”.

                Infrastructure is something that benefits and maintains the general public. Bitcoin benefits a handful of cryptobros, billionaires… and most importantly ransomware rings.

                • Mubelotix@jlai.lu
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  5
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  3 months ago

                  Your straw man is “shit in their pants”

                  Read your own comments dude

    • Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      7
      ·
      edit-2
      3 months ago

      Bitcoin is digital money. A better analogy would be to campaign for a USD, Yen, euro or British pound emoji.

      Oh wait, they already exist.

    • deafboy@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      5
      ·
      3 months ago

      We also need a McDonald’s emoji, Pepsi emoji, Windows emoji and Mastercard emoji

      bitcoin is not a company.

      • magic_lobster_party@kbin.run
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        2
        ·
        3 months ago

        Unicode Consortium decide which emoji should be included. It’s up to each vendor themselves to come up with how they should look like. I don’t think Unicode Consortium explicitly state it must look like McDonald’s fries.

  • lemmytellyousomething@lemmy.dbzer0.com
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    55
    ·
    edit-2
    3 months ago

    Short reminder that Bitcoin was created as a reaction on the world finance crisis and to allow people like Assange to receive donations, because PayPal and similar just blocked them…

    That does not mean that Botcoin is perfect, but: If the alternative system was perfect, there was not bitcoin.

    Now, do we need an emoji? I don’t care TBH…

    • Echo Dot@feddit.uk
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      5
      ·
      3 months ago

      I don’t mind a system like bitcoin existing but bitcoin itself has way too many problems to be useful and actually is detrimental to the environment. It takes way too long to process a transaction, it is massively energy intensive for what it is, and it’s been hyped up like the Californian gold Rush.

      Sure it was created to solve a problem but it doesn’t actually solve that problem very effectively. It also introduces an infinite number of new problems that no other currency system has ever experienced.

      • technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        5
        ·
        3 months ago

        It also introduces an infinite number of new problems that no other currency system has ever experienced.

        Infinite problems, eh? Can you name like 10?

    • smeeps@lemmy.mtate.me.uk
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      5
      ·
      3 months ago

      Bitcoin is terrible for that though. High transaction fees, slow transaction speeds, everyone can see your balances and transactions (and with KYC requirements it’s very easy to link a wallet and a coin to a person).

      Monero is the only digital currency worth having.

      • deafboy@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        3 months ago

        Monero is great. Except for the fact that when the dev team dislikes what miners are doing, they introduce a new arbitrary rule, and everyone just goes with it. Having a process to introduce such changes unilaterally is a bug that needs to be fixed first.

        Also, there’s a lightning network which allows you to transact bitcoin fast and cheap. Although the privacy aspect is still not solved there.

    • smallpatatas@lemm.eeOP
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      1
      ·
      3 months ago

      This is like saying “laws aren’t always enforced equally, so we should have no laws whatsoever”. Bitcoin is not a helpful response.

      • lemmytellyousomething@lemmy.dbzer0.com
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        3 months ago

        I think, whether it’s helpful is an individual decision. E.g. for people in Turkey, it’s a lot more stable than their own currency. Same logic for probably dozens of other countries…

        Maybe, it’s not useful for you, but that’s OK. No one is trying to replace your currency with it and force you to use it.

        • smallpatatas@lemm.eeOP
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          3 months ago

          Bitcoin’s “value” in USD terms has dropped ~20% in the last few days, so I’m not sure we can call it ‘stable’

          • iopq@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            ·
            3 months ago

            In 1998 the USD fell like 20% vs the yen, currencies don’t always stay the same value vs. other currencies

            • smallpatatas@lemm.eeOP
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              ·
              3 months ago

              Bitcoin regularly loses 85% of its “value” vs USD

              85%

              This has happened multiple times

              • lemmytellyousomething@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                edit-2
                3 months ago

                Turkey’s currency dropped 83% in the last 5 years and 94% in 10 years (per USD). And by the way: It dropped and did not rise the same amount ever again…

                Why can’t we just agree that different people might have different views whether it’s useful for them?

                Is it more stable compared to USD? No. Is it more stable compared to dozens of other currencies? Yes.

                I think, there are very good arguments against BTC, for example the energy consunption… But whether it’s too risky for you or not… That’s highly subjective IMO. There is no country on this planet with only BTC as official currency. So, no one is forced to hold 100% of their total money in BTC.

                • smallpatatas@lemm.eeOP
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  2
                  ·
                  3 months ago

                  So the argument is no longer “Bitcoin provides stability” or whatever, but instead is, “it’s no more unstable than the world’s most unstable national currency”?

              • iopq@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                3 months ago

                The swings were bigger when the market cap was smaller, this is usually the case. The market cap of the yen is much bigger still.

                • smallpatatas@lemm.eeOP
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  2
                  ·
                  3 months ago

                  Turns out you’re right, BTC price only went down 77% from the 2021 peak, my mistake /s

  • dan@upvote.au
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    49
    ·
    edit-2
    3 months ago

    You don’t get a new Emoji by creating a change .org petition lol

    You need to write a proper proposal and send it to the Unicode consortium: https://unicode.org/emoji/proposals.html. If it gets rejected, it’s four years until you can reapply for the same Emoji.

  • TootSweet@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    40
    ·
    3 months ago

    Cryptocurrency is speedrunning ruining everything. We might as well have a laugh at the cryptobros’ expense in the meantime.

    • m-p{3}@lemmy.ca
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      37
      ·
      3 months ago

      I loved the concept at first, the idea of a decentralized currency all handled by encryption, and transactions permamently stored in a public ledger for all to see.

      Then the cryptobros and the scammers caught wind of it and it’s all downhill from there.

      • TootSweet@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        16
        ·
        3 months ago

        If you want the name of a payment techology that isn’t snake oil, isn’t blockchain-based, isn’t a cult, doesn’t claim to be a currency, doesn’t work on proof-of-work or proof-of-stake, but actually does provide certain privacy guarantees for your basic purchasing needs, is cryptographically secure, and can be used with only FOSS, I recommend looking into GNU Taler.

        The only downside is that it’s not really supported anywhere at all yet. But I do hope it becomes a real thing some day.

        • radamant@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          6
          ·
          3 months ago

          Please describe how I can send the money to my mom in Russia (disconnected from SWIFT) with GNU Taler today. I’ll wait.

          • TootSweet@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            16
            ·
            3 months ago

            I don’t know how I could possibly have been more explicit about it not yet being ready for any real-world use cases than I was.

            • radamant@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              4
              ·
              3 months ago

              It will never be ready. It doesn’t even make sense. To transact with real fiat like the US dollar, you’ll have to go through an official on-ramp and an off-ramp of the respective government. And to do an international transaction you’ll have to use one of the widely accepted systems like SWIFT. GNU Taler doesn’t appear to address anything like that. Anyhow, my comment was made with the premise of this whole thread in mind, i.e. “Bitcoin is stupid” or “snake oil”. Yet there’s no alternatives to what crypto provides. So is it that stupid after all?

              • explodicle@sh.itjust.works
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                2
                ·
                3 months ago

                How wasteful!

                Anyhow, today I’m going to resume using a currency backed by oil and nukes, which encourages consumption on purpose. I will then either exploit workers by investing in a for-profit business, or get poorer.

                But someday, in the future, economics will work the way I expect them to. That’s when I’ll switch to something better!

                • iopq@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  2
                  ·
                  3 months ago

                  Russia has had oil and nukes and it didn’t stop the ruble from collapsing in the 90s

                  Maybe reexamine your assumptions

        • unautrenom@jlai.lu
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          5
          ·
          edit-2
          3 months ago

          The only downside is that it’s not really supported anywhere at all yet. But I do hope it becomes a real thing some day.

          AFAIK there’s a lot of talk about making GNU Taler the basis for the ‘digital Euro’ which is curently being debated at the EU Parliement.

        • EngineerGaming@feddit.nl
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          3 months ago

          Yea, that is interesting! I don’t really understand a lot of it though. Wonder how censorship-resistant it can be, and whether the receiver would be able to cash it out anonymously.

          • TootSweet@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            6
            ·
            3 months ago

            I’m not an expert on it, but I’ve done a certain amount of study on it.

            I’m pretty sure there are no privacy guarantees for money receivers. Merchants/sellers would still be identifiable by banks and governments and such. So Taler isn’t what anyone selling heroin or doing murder for hire would want to be using as an accepted payment method. (At least not any more so than credit/debit card transactions will help the seller with keeping their doings secret.)

            But Taler can keep the buyers’ identity secret. Unless you’re doing things in ways that reveal information about yourself, your bank and your government wouldn’t know you were buying fursuits even if they knew the merchant was selling fursuits.

            So all that to say that no, the merchant couldn’t cash out anonymously.

            • EngineerGaming@feddit.nl
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              ·
              3 months ago

              What I don’t understand is whether it is like “Taler is obtained and cashed out only in a bank, but the link between two events is unknown” or if Taler can change hands during said “link”.

              If the former - I really hope it gets implemented as a card replacement, but it would need to coexist with something like Monero (which is what I use now) that is more akin to cash. But I really hope that somehow non-blockchain full-on “digital cash” could one day be invented, so wonder if this could be it :)

              • TootSweet@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                3
                ·
                3 months ago

                How I understand it is:

                • You go to your bank (or use a webapp or whatever) who knows who you are and get them to initiate a withdrawl from your bank account to your Taler wallet in the amount of, say $100.
                • The balance in your Taler wallet goes up by $100. The bank also decrements your bank account by $100 and puts that $100 in an escrow holding intending to pay it to whatever recipient(s) can provide cryptographic proof that you gave them Taler.
                • You go to a merchant and pay out of that $100 Taler balance $9 for a cheeseburger and fries.
                • The merchant receives $9 in Taler from you and checks with your bank that that $9 hasn’t already been spent previously before concluding the payment process and giving you your receipt and burger.
                • You now have a burger and fries and your Taler balance is $91.
                • But the merchant doesn’t learn anything about your identity in the process. But they do have proof that your bank has $9 in escrow earmarked for them (the merchant) specifically.
                • And your bank doesn’t know which of their customers to which they’ve ever given Taler is the one buying from the merchant in question. They just know that of the total sum of Taler they’ve issued that hasn’t been collected yet, $9 is earmarked for such-and-such merchant/burger joint.
                • The merchant can settle up any time, but theoretically the bank can charge per-transaction fees. In order to minimize fees, it behooves the merchant to batch up settlements. The merchant can claim actual USD for every dollar that was used at that establishment by customers via Taler over, say, the last week or whatever in one big settlement batched transaction.

                I’m leaving out some details, but that should give you a decent idea of how things work with Taler.

                Now, as for this bit:

                if Taler can change hands during said “link”.

                That, I’m not sure of. It might be that you can transfer Taler from your wallet to someone else’s wallet (that they could then spend) without any identities being revealed, though they wouldn’t be able to get real USD or whatever without working with your bank which would generally insist on confirming their identity. But I’d think in order for the recipient in that situation to know that they actually had real Taler and not Taler that you had already spent and that wouldn’t actually work if they tried to spend it or cash it in, they’d have to make basically an API call to your bank, though unless the bank blocked all traffic from every VPN and traffic anonymizer (like Tor or I2p) in existence, I see no reason why it couldn’t be done in a way that preserved the recipient’s anonymity.

                So yeah. Not sure. But even if that bit isn’t a thing, I still want Taler to take off.

                • EngineerGaming@feddit.nl
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  2
                  ·
                  3 months ago

                  Ah, so probably would not work to evade censorship/sanctions. I would REALLY love to use such a thing instead of my card though.

        • index@sh.itjust.works
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          3 months ago

          isn’t blockchain-based, doesn’t work on proof-of-work or proof-of-stake

          These things weren’t introduced as a gimmick they are used to solve specific problems.

        • deafboy@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          3 months ago

          GNU Taller is pretty fragile, though. One bank issues unbacked tokens and the credibility of the whole system goes down the drain. It’s the current financial system, just rebranded. Also, it promotes taxation which automatically makes it a cult & scam.

          • TootSweet@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            ·
            edit-2
            3 months ago

            One bank issues unbacked tokens

            1. The Taler protocol has bank auditors built-in.
            2. Your hypothetical would just as much apply to existing debit cards.
            3. Unbacked tokens. You mean like Tether? (Let alone Terra.)

            Also, it promotes taxation which automatically makes it a cult & scam?

            The fuck? How does Taler “promote taxation?”

            Fuckin’ Libertarians.

            • deafboy@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              3 months ago

              Unbacked tokens. You mean like Tether?

              Exactly like Tether. USDT was never backed 1:1 by USD. They don’t even try to deny it anymore. They admit it’s backed by “various assets, including BTC”, which smells like a market manipulation.

              How does Taler promote taxation?

              “Customers can stay anonymous, but merchants can not hide their income through payments with GNU Taler. This helps to avoid tax evasion and money laundering.”

      • shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        15
        ·
        3 months ago

        Scammers use the technology because it actually works and does what it says it does. And criminals and scammers and such are generally the first ones to adopt a new technology. Such as bank robbers adopting the automobile in order to get away faster.

      • blind3rdeye@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        6
        ·
        3 months ago

        I liked the idea for awhile as well. But for me, learning about the “proof of work” underpinning is what changed my mind. That - and the fact that cryptocurrency does not actually have any of the strengths that it claims to have. It’s definitely and interesting idea… but in practice it’s all just scams and incentivised waste.

        • deafboy@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          3 months ago

          That’s interesting. I’ve initially written it off as a scam. Until I’ve learned about the proof-of-work.

      • Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        4
        ·
        edit-2
        3 months ago

        Did they or did a bunch of media get pushed that told us all what these crypto bros were doing like shitting on beaches and taking our jobs.

        Seriously though I’m picking up on a trend that a lot media has a greater influence on opinion then I’ve ever seen before

    • index@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      4
      ·
      3 months ago

      I would rather point my finger at wall street or financial institutions not at the tools that offers a viable option to avoid these

  • nublug@lemmy.blahaj.zone
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    34
    ·
    3 months ago

    fighting for bitcoin to get an emoji is stupid, but fighting against it might be even stupider. surely there are more important things to spend your time and energy on. it’s a fucking emoji. who cares?

    • smallpatatas@lemm.eeOP
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      35
      ·
      3 months ago

      normalizing scams, by laundering their image via standards organizations, pollutes our communications environment. Both an emoji and a petition are symbolic - and our symbols are in fact important.

      • CeeBee_Eh@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        12
        ·
        3 months ago

        Bitcoin isn’t a scam. All non-bitcoin cryptocurrencies are scams.

        People often hear about stuff like coins that are pre-mined, or proof-of-stake and the schemes and scans that come out of those, and immediately associate Bitcoin with the same thing.

        • shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          23
          ·
          3 months ago

          That is also not 100% true. There are several altcoins with fantastic utility. Monero and Ethereum come to mind.

          • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            12
            ·
            3 months ago

            Exactly. Most cryptocurrencies are scams, but a handful are fantastic. Ethereum is cool for being proof-of-stake (so no high-energy mining), and Monero is cool for being super privacy-oriented. There are a handful more, but honestly, if you stick with Bitcoin, Ethereum, and Monero, you’ll be fine.

            • shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              3
              ·
              3 months ago

              That’s pretty much exactly my thought. I hold a very very small amount in Polygon, but only in order to pay the gas fees for the Polygon network. So I never have more than a few US dollars worth in it at a time.

              • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                2
                ·
                3 months ago

                Yeah, I basically just do Monero, and I use it as a spend account and use it anywhere it’s accepted. I don’t invest in any cryptocurrencies because I don’t think cryptocurrencies have positive expected return (it’s all hype), so I keep the amount of crypto I have small.

          • Mubelotix@jlai.lu
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            8
            ·
            3 months ago

            Ethereum has scam characteristics though. The creator Vitalik gave himself time to mine it alone before giving public access. He secured for himself quite a nice stash

        • glassware@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          7
          ·
          3 months ago

          Of course bitcoin is a scam. It’s a “currency” you can’t spend anywhere. It’s only purpose is a pump and dump scheme for early adopters.

          • 0x0@programming.dev
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            7
            ·
            3 months ago

            It’s a “currency” you can’t spend anywhere.

            You could’ve at least pretended to have done some basic research…

          • CeeBee_Eh@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            ·
            3 months ago

            It’s a “currency” you can’t spend anywhere

            Lol

            It’s only purpose is a pump and dump scheme for early adopters.

            This is exactly what many alt-coins are but Bitcoin is decidedly not.

            You’re confusing “easy to mine” with “early adopter scam”.

    • reksas@sopuli.xyz
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      6
      ·
      edit-2
      3 months ago

      millions of people who use emojis would constantly see it. It would slowly start to feel more familiar to them and increase its acceptance. If that works, others would try to do the same and we would have every and any company put their logos in. If it doesnt then it doesnt matter that much, but i dont want to risk yet another avenue for corporations to worm into peoples minds.

      Personally i dont care about emojis at all but i do care about general mentalspace.

  • Aopen@discuss.tchncs.de
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    33
    ·
    edit-2
    3 months ago

    Emoji? Why not unicode character like $ or €?

    Edit: Dear OP, please stop popularizing these ₿rat’s marketing ideas

  • AnAmericanPotato@programming.dev
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    28
    ·
    3 months ago

    This will likely be rejected for one the same reasons that they decided they would not add any new flag emojis. Flags come and go. Bitcoin hasn’t even been around for 20 years yet, and its future is highly uncertain.

    Also, considered as a currency, it would be better as a regular text character, not an emoji. Like $, €, ¥, £, etc.

    • Echo Dot@feddit.uk
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      15
      ·
      3 months ago

      I actually don’t mind it being added as a text character because then I can actually use it. Using it as an emoji is useless to everyone other than the crypto bros that want to spam it on Twitter.

        • AnAmericanPotato@programming.dev
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          10
          ·
          3 months ago

          I don’t know about strictly “unable” but there are a million contexts where it is a bad idea and simply not done. Like a spreadsheet or financial document. Or anywhere you want your text to behave like text — with a consistent font, color, style, etc. The difference between $ (text) and 💲 (emoji) is pretty stark in most contexts.

          • ulterno@lemmy.kde.social
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            7
            ·
            3 months ago

            For example, on the dark background of the UI I am viewing your comment on, The $ symbol is in white colour (as the font has been set).

            But the emoji is dark grey, and wouldn’t be visible if I had a cheap, low contrast monitor.

            • Trev625@lemm.ee
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              5
              ·
              edit-2
              3 months ago

              For me it looks like this:

              So the text one appears the same for both of us but the emoji one appears differently which could possibly change its meaning if they were different enough

              • ulterno@lemmy.kde.social
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                3
                ·
                3 months ago

                Probably because the emoji fonts don’t change their colour with the font.color, which normal characters do.

                And your browser is using a different font from mine

        • Echo Dot@feddit.uk
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          edit-2
          3 months ago

          Emoji are only supported in rich text formatted documents they’re not actual text. If I type a Euro symbol it’s a Euro symbol it’s not a picture of a Euro symbol depending on context it’s the actual Euro symbol. If I ask a computer what symbol it is the computer can tell me it’s a Euro symbol, it doesn’t go, ooh I don’t know it’s a picture.

          € 💶

          One renders consistently irrespective of device viewing the other is entirely dependent of device viewing. Go look at this post on different devices and see the problem

    • umbraroze@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      12
      ·
      3 months ago

      Technically, emoji doesn’t even have specific flags, they just have country codes, conforming to the ISO list - actually choosing which flags will be included is up to the individual implemeters. Regional flags got a little bit complicated because they need to establish the conventions first.

  • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    26
    ·
    3 months ago

    Suggestion: We do with the Bitcoin emoji what people did with the eggplant emoji. The B stands for butthole. So now we can do [eggplant emoji] [bitcoin emoji].

    I’m sure the TOTALLY NOT HOMOPHOBIC tech bros will love it.

  • ricecake@sh.itjust.works
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    16
    ·
    3 months ago

    Bitcoin is stupid, but the point of Unicode is that we have a symbol for everything that has a commonly recognized symbol or representative value, or even uncommonly recognized.

    If gets a character, or all the symbols of the Byzantine musical notation system, I’m not sure why a typically recognized symbol for a cryptocurrency shouldn’t.

    The weird bit is that they put together a petition. All you really need to do is submit a proposal and show that it’s a notable symbol and not owned by anyone in particular or a brand icon.

    Here’s the proposal to add “goose” to Unicode. They even added a few joke-y bits, but they made a valid argument that “goose” is a symbol that people recognize. And now… 🪿

    • lunarul@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      14
      ·
      3 months ago

      I don’t disagree with the overall comment, but there’s a difference between character and emoji. ⅌ got a character, but so did ₿ already.

      • ricecake@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        6
        ·
        3 months ago

        There really isn’t a difference between a character and an emoji beyond an emoji being a stylized rendering of a character, or a character whose use is intended as a pictograph.

        https://www.unicode.org/reports/tr51/#Introduction

        They’re all just Unicode code points, although I suppose there’s some distinction between the characters with more context specific meaning or the ones that are more apt to modification a la 🧑‍⚕️👩🏿‍⚕️. But you’ve also got 💲 and $, where “bold dollar sign” is often represented as green, but “dollar sign” tends to be represented in contextual style. Is ☣ a character or an emoji? What about the thousands of “other symbols” as defined by the Unicode spec which may or may not have special character renderings depending on your platform and font?

        And yeah, I didn’t know that character existed, so now it’s doubly confusing why anyone is asking for anything. The symbol has meaning, and it’s in the big book of meaningful symbols. Not sure what more they want.

        • lunarul@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          edit-2
          3 months ago

          There’s no ambiguity. Emoji are characters in the emoticons code block (U+1F600…U+1F64F). Emoji are indeed a subset of characters, but anything outside that block is not an emoji.

          Edit: jumped the gun on that definition, just took the code block from Wikipedia. But there is no ambiguity on which character is an emoji and which is not. The Unicode Consortium publishes lists of emoji and guidelines on how they should be rendered.

          • ricecake@sh.itjust.works
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            ·
            3 months ago

            Gotcha, so ⌚(U+231A, miscellaneous technical block) isn’t an emoji, despite it clearly being a pictograph, and there are only 80 emoji?

            I feel like this definition isn’t in line with either the lay definition of emoji, nor the technical definition

            Emoji are pictographs (pictorial symbols) that are typically presented in a colorful cartoon form and used inline in text. They represent things such as faces, weather, vehicles and buildings, food and drink, animals and plants, or icons that represent emotions, feelings, or activities.

            People often ask how many emoji are in the Unicode Standard. This question does not have a simple answer, because there is no clear line separating which pictographic characters should be displayed with a typical emoji style.

            Emoji are seriously just Unicode characters that sometimes get rendered as a fancy image. That’s it. There’s an entire bit about how different characters have different conventional presentations and a codified system of “default” for image or “text”.

            The presentation of a given emoji character depends on the environment, whether or not there is an emoji or text presentation selector, and the default presentation style (emoji versus text). In informal environments like texting and chats, it is more appropriate for most emoji characters to appear with a colorful emoji presentation, and only get a text presentation with a text presentation selector. Conversely, in formal environments such as word processing, it is generally better for emoji characters to appear with a text presentation, and only get the colorful emoji presentation with the emoji presentation selector.

            That’s why there’s things like ☣️ and ☣. Same codepoint, but different presentation hints. (I’m assuming that our various systems will do the right thing and capture the presentation hints, otherwise I’m going to look very odd putting the same symbol over and over :-) )

            • lunarul@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              edit-2
              3 months ago

              I rushed to just grab that codeblock from Wikipedia. But the selection of which characters are considered emoji is not arbitrary. The Unicode Consortium (their Unicode Emoji Standard and Research Working Group to be exact) publishes those list and guidelines on how they should be rendered. I believe the most recent version of the standard is Emoji 15.1.

              Edit: I realized I’m going off track here by just reacting to comments and forgetting my initial point. The difference I was initially alluding to is in selection criteria. The emoji. for assigning a character a Unicode codepoint is very different from the criteria for creating a new emoji. Bitcoin has a unique symbol and there is a real need to use that symbol in written material. Having a unicode character for it solves that problem, and indeed one was added. The Emoji working group has other selection criteria (which is why you have emoji for eggplant and flying money, and other things that are not otherwise characters. So the fact that a certain character exists, despite its very limited use, has no bearing on whether something else should have an emoji to represent it.

              • ricecake@sh.itjust.works
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                3 months ago

                I am aware of the lists and guidelines, I’ve been linking and quoting them to you. :)

                It’s their report on the standards that highlights that they don’t think there’s a clear distinction between “emoji” and “character”, and that it’s mostly a matter of user expectation.
                Hence some pictograph characters having a default “text” presentation, and some having a default “emoji” presentation. They also clarify that some things with a default “emoji” presentation aren’t in the set of characters people would associate with emoji and shouldn’t be counted if you’re trying.

                I understand what you’re saying, which is that the selection criteria is different for a “language symbol” as opposed to a “pictographic symbol”, so they’re different things.
                I disagree and think that “default presentation” might be a better metric, but that ultimately it’s about user and platform expectations. The same character can be presented “emoji” style or “text” style depending on context.

                In any case, I’d also agree that there’s no viability to the notion that people use the Bitcoin symbol in a way that’s independent of the one meaning that it has, so a colorful cartoony rendition becoming an option doesn’t really fit. “His Christmas gift was $$$” is a sentiment people might express. “The hotel is ₿₿₿” just … Isn’t.

  • shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    15
    ·
    3 months ago

    Bitcoin has the right idea, but did not execute it properly, primarily because it was the first and technology has improved and it has not. Monero is actually doing what bitcoin was meant to do and acting as a transactional currency, medium of exchange, and store of value.

    • cygnus@lemmy.ca
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      29
      ·
      3 months ago

      Look at my totally stable store of currency bro, trust me bro, this is totally useful as a means of exchange and you can trust in its future value bro, just believe me.

      • shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        11
        ·
        3 months ago

        Now, overlay that price chart with a transaction count chart averaged out over say 90 days and what you will notice is that big spike up to 400 and above was at basically no transaction volume which makes it seem more like that was hype. Looking at the price chart over shorter timeframes such as a year will show you that the transaction count is actually increasing now and the price is staying quite stable.

        • cygnus@lemmy.ca
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          15
          ·
          3 months ago

          “Ignore the glaring flaws and look only at the parts I tell you to” is great fiscal policy and inspires a lot of trust. You nerds are basically sending PGP emails to each other and pretending it’s money. It isn’t — it’s literally nothing.

            • cygnus@lemmy.ca
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              12
              ·
              3 months ago

              No, because the rest of us have to deal with the environmental destruction wrought by your virtual paperclip maximizer. it affects everyone.

              • 0x0@programming.dev
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                6
                ·
                3 months ago

                Your comment costs data-center energy, please help save the environment by not commenting.

              • shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                5
                ·
                3 months ago

                Fine, go after the industries that are doing more, such as industrial processing for making glass and other things that require high temperatures, the global transportation industry, etc.

                • cygnus@lemmy.ca
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  9
                  ·
                  3 months ago

                  Why would I “go after” an industry producing something useful, rather than grifters powering GPUs to do absolutely nothing of value? We can get to the glass industry once we’ve culled the useless garbage first.

                • explodicle@sh.itjust.works
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  3 months ago

                  Why should we care what they go after? If they regulate or tax mining, that’s just a difficulty adjustment that won’t impact our security budget.

                  There’s a Pareto improvement to be had here.

              • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                4
                ·
                3 months ago

                Monero is mining-resistant, which means mining farms are going to be unprofitable. The people mining Monero are regular enthusiasts, so that should mean there’s less wasted energy from a ton of people competing over the same number of coins. Oh, and Monero has no maximum block-size, which keeps transaction costs low (which means even less competition over mining).

                I don’t know of a good way to estimate Monero electricity usage, but I’m guessing it’s way less than Bitcoin has per transaction, or at least it would be if they had a similar number of transactions. Monero is a lot more complex currency (so one transaction will actually spawn a bunch of “fake” transactions), but that mining-resistance is doing some work.

                Here’s Monero’s webpage, which has some discussion on energy usage, which I think I’ve summarized well above.

        • YtA4QCam2A9j7EfTgHrH@infosec.pub
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          9
          ·
          3 months ago

          I don’t know if this argument is the winner you thought it was. A currency where people aren’t using it as a means of exchange because of price fluctuations is a failure.

          • cygnus@lemmy.ca
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            14
            ·
            3 months ago

            No, no, hear them out. It’s actually super great that when you walk into the grocery store the loaf of bread is $1.50, and by the time you walk to the bread aisle it’s $0.72, and by the time you walk to the cashier it’s $2.10. This is actually super great, because there’s also a medium country’s worth of electricity being consumed to enable that.

            • shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              6
              ·
              edit-2
              3 months ago

              When i pick up a loaf of bread its 0.012, and when i check out its 0.012. Currentsies are going to shift against each other. The exact same thing would occur if you walked into a store in, say, Germany and handed them dollars. Also, do you mind telling me how much energy the banking system uses to run their equipment, build their buildings, have their employees come to their branches, move armored trucks full of cash, etc. Like, I can understand the power use thing being an issue. But if you want to go after something that would make more of a difference, how about figuring out thermal bricks or something for industries making glass? Which produces a hell of a lot more greenhouse gases than crypto mining does. Industrial processes are a huge polluter. Or how about the global transportation system?

              • my_hat_stinks@programming.dev
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                8
                ·
                3 months ago

                This is the poster child for whataboutisn. You literally just argued that it’s okay for cryptocurrencies to pollute and waste energy because it takes energy to make glass too.

          • shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            ·
            3 months ago

            It fluctuates with an I narrow range, and as it gets more adoption, that range is continuing to narrow. As a matter of fact, I sell items for Monero and I keep my prices completely stable and people do come to buy things. https://xmrbazaar.com/user/shortwavesurfer2009/. I have my prices set in such a way that they will stay stable until at least December 1st of 2024 at which time I will update them if need be.

        • cygnus@lemmy.ca
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          ·
          3 months ago

          Creeping my posts form days ago? That isn’t weird or anything. I’m guessing you’re trying to make a point in there somewhere, but you’ll have to point it out to me.

            • cygnus@lemmy.ca
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              3 months ago

              I didn’t check out any of your posts. I was making a point about the “safe and stable” stockmarket vs the “volatile and dangerous” cryptomarket.

              We’re talking about currencies, not stocks, but I’m not surprised that crypto bros think their imaginary coins an somehow both appreciate in value like an investment while also being stable enough to use as a currency.

    • cacheson 🏴🔁🍊@piefed.social
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      11
      ·
      3 months ago

      Monero will not scale. All attempts at “improved” altcoins have just sacrificed scalability in exchange for features that look good in the short term to investors that don’t know any better.

      • shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        8
        ·
        3 months ago

        There are people dedicated specifically to Monero scaling and they are a hell of a lot smarter than me and do not see any reason why it cannot be scaled properly. Look at some talks by Articmine

        • cacheson 🏴🔁🍊@piefed.social
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          4
          ·
          3 months ago

          I’m not interested in spending a ton of time on this, but I did go and watch this short interview with him about scaling misconceptions.

          Wasn’t convincing at all. For one, the guy comes across as kind of dishonest. Not scammer-level dishonest, but more like a politician. The main thing though is that he’s just a big-blocker, which is just a total dead end. Having everyone store every single transaction that was ever made until the end of time is just not realistic.

          In order to scale to any globally significant number of users, a cryptocurrency needs a second layer to aggregate transactions, such as Lightning. Monero seems to have nothing in this regard beyond “However, academic and industry research is ongoing and promising in this area.”

          they are a hell of a lot smarter than me

          You should not be investing money in something based on this level of understanding, and you *definitely* should not be advocating it to others. Scaling is an existential problem for cryptocurrencies. Their utility is based on their monetary value, and their monetary value is based on investor assessment of their future utility. Without the ability to scale, there will be no growth in utility, which means no investment other than temporary dumb money, which becomes a vicious cycle.

          • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            5
            ·
            3 months ago

            You should not be investing money in something based on this level of understanding

            IMO, you shouldn’t be investing in cryptocurrencies or any currencies for that matter. Currencies should be used, not hoarded with the expectation of gain. If you’re buying cryptocurrencies as an investment, you’ve already lost.

            Where cryptocurrencies have value is as a medium of exchange. In many parts of the world, the central bank isn’t trustworthy and end up causing runaway inflation, such as in Venezuela, Argentina, and Turkey. This is because there is a lot of political gains to be had by manipulating the currency to make things appear better than they are. The US hasn’t had this issue largely because the Federal Reserve is largely immune to politics (they’re appointed by the executive and confirmed by the Senate, but that’s about it). But that’s not guaranteed to always be the case. Board members can be removed, and the President and Senate can theoretically pack the Federal Reserve board in the same way as packing the Supreme Court.

            The great thing about cryptocurrencies is that you don’t need to trust anyone to use it. Here are the parties involved in a transaction:

            • you
            • the other party
            • miners verifying blocks
            • source code maintainers

            Each of those has checks in place. You and the other party don’t need to exchange secrets, only information that is totally acceptable to be shared (pub keys, not private keys). With something like Monero, you can even make a separate key for each transaction if you’d like. Miners compete against each other to validate transactions accurately, and if a miner tries to cheat, their results are excluded. Source code maintainers work in the open, so researchers (or you!) can and do look at the code.

            With fiat, you have to trust the central bank and banking regulators. If you don’t trust your central bank, you’re SOL.

            The cost of using a cryptocurrency vs a central bank is that lack of central oversight, meaning you’ll see more variation in valuations. However, this should smooth out as more people use it as a currency (so more even inflows vs outflows). There isn’t something like the US dollar or Euro’s target 2% inflation rate, so we could see deflation instead of inflation if cryptocurrencies catch on or if people flee to it from investments in a bear market or something.

            The value of a cryptocurrency is the demand for that currency. Just like fiat, it has value if we believe it has value. Fiat currencies aren’t based on anything more than supply and demand for that currency, just like crytocurrencies, with the big distinction that valuations also take into account trust in the backing back (whereas cryptocurrencies include trust in the network and code).

            • cacheson 🏴🔁🍊@piefed.social
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              2
              ·
              3 months ago

              IMO, you shouldn’t be investing in cryptocurrencies or any currencies for that matter. Currencies should be
              used, not hoarded with the expectation of gain. If you’re buying cryptocurrencies as an investment, you’ve already lost.

              Cryptocurrencies literally cannot function without speculative investment. Even in the absence of formal investors, *someone* has to be the first person to accept the tokens in exchange for something of value, in hopes that they will have value of their own in the future. Until then, the tokens are unusable.

              Further, the market cap and liquidity of a cryptocurrency impose practical limits on what it can be used for. You can’t very well conduct a billion dollar transaction through a cryptocurrency that has a market cap in the millions. Investment raises the market cap, “unlocking” these higher-value use cases. Conversely, loss of investor confidence will reduce the market cap, and effectively reduce the utility of the coin.

              This is why ability to scale is so important. The current market values of Bitcoin and the various alts are based far more on speculative investment than they are on usage. Those investors believe that the coins will see far more usage (and have far more natural demand) in the future than they do today. If that turns out not to be the case due to an inability to scale, investors will start to flee, and the vicious cycle will start.

              • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                3 months ago

                I don’t think anyone needs to exchange cryptocurrencies for “something of value” for the investment to work, they just have to believe the currency itself holds value, where value is defined by supply vs demand. If enough people think others will believe it has value, then demand will increase. It’s basically how MLMs work, but it can sustain itself once it reaches a sufficient number of investors.

                Adding transactions for real goods and services in the mix expands the reach of the currency and can stabilize demand a bit once the initial speculators have lost interest. So yeah, there’s absolutely a motivation for speculators to try to get others on-board. But it’s not necessarily a requirement, as we can see with other collector fads like Beanie Babies or Baseball Cards (the only value is in trading with other collectors), but just changed to be digital (NFTs are the strongest analogue).

                However, just because speculators are rewarded if you use a cryptocurrency for transactions doesn’t mean you should avoid it. Use it if it provides value to you. The value proposition is:

                • lower transaction fees, especially for international transactions - Bitcoin fails for small local transactions, but works well for large and international transactions; the lightning network helps for small transactions, and other currencies exist for small transactions as well
                • privacy - banks can and do sell your data, and governments may be interested in your transactions as well; you can’t use cash for online transactions, so there aren’t many good options
                • security - breaches and scams happen, and if you don’t notice the issue soon enough, you could end up paying for fraudulent transactions; with cryptocurrencies, you never share your private key, so you’re as safe as wherever you store that key; you can also move money between keys, so you can keep the bulk of your money safe

                Even without any kind of physical backing, cryptocurrencies offer an attractive value proposition. We could probably solve the above with fiat, but that currently is not a thing. I don’t recommend using cryptocurrencies for everything, nor do I recommend using it as an investment, but I do recommend using it for a few transactions here and there until you feel comfortable with it because of that value proposition.

                • cacheson 🏴🔁🍊@piefed.social
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  3 months ago

                  It seems like you’re arguing against a position that I don’t hold? I’ve been invested in Bitcoin for a long time, and I’m quite familiar with its technical and socioeconomic dynamics. I’m skeptical of altcoins specifically, not of cryptocurrency as a concept.

          • shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            3 months ago

            While I personally agree that we should not store all transactions for all time, our storage capability is going to get exponentially better. We are able to store data in 3D discs with lasers now and can store petabytes in a single disc the size of your typical old CD-ROM and even store data in DNA if we wish. These obviously aren’t going to be included in your desktop computer anytime in the near future, but they do currently exist and show that storage will not be a problem for a very very long time.

            • cacheson 🏴🔁🍊@piefed.social
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              2
              ·
              3 months ago

              Scalability isn’t quite as simple as “how much data can a well-off enthusiast from a developed country store”. You need to consider the behavior of your lowest common denominator users.

              You want as many users as possible to run fully-verifying nodes, rather than SPV (“simplified payment verification”) nodes that can be tricked by a malicious miner. The more transactions are being done through SPV nodes, the more potential payoff there is for an attacker, and the more resources they can dedicate to an attack.

              Further, if your number of full nodes gets low enough, it becomes feasible for state actors to track down and compromise the remaining node operators. At that point, you may as well just be using a centralized, government approved payment system instead.

    • smallpatatas@lemm.eeOP
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      10
      ·
      edit-2
      3 months ago

      I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again:

      True bitcoiners 🤝 no-coiners “Bitcoin should be illegal”