I guess I want to be 100% sure that Democrats are a lost cause before I give up on them.
I stupidly keep hoping Democrats will be rational enough to yield to facts.
(Democrats are always saying that they’re the rational side of politics in this country.) But I’m realizing Democrats have become nothing more than BlueMAGA.
Homerian, I’ve been rather patient. We both deserve some level of respect, if only as fellow human beings. So when I ask people to move along it’s because I don’t feel you’ll have your mind or opinions changed by words on an online forum, largely due to how you don’t typically listen rationally.
Among other reasons, most of us who lean Left recognize that there are commonalities and where comparisons can be made between the radicalization of the Right, and some of the more radical positions those on the Left can take. We also know not every position taken on any side is inherently good or bad. For the most part we make judgment calls, which is why there are so many groups with even small differences in opinion not-on-the-Right and why we bicker. It’s a weakness we have as a larger community.
However, we are NOT MAGA. We do not subscribe willfully to a cult without first being tricked, nor do we go out of our way to cause harm. If Harris or Walz or Obama or fucking Abraham Lincoln came back and began yelling about how they will become King and suppress minorities, etc, we would absolutely turn against them. We follow those we follow because right now there aren’t many choices, something we intend to change. We see that this is a step in the right direction, and a big one at that. Despite our honestly very valid hatred of Trump and the modern GOP, we want what’s best for everyone in this country, including those on the Right. This is why we challenge you constantly. Because you’re someone that wants to speak out and we strongly feel that despite your arguments you are not making strong cases, and certainly appear to be working against this greater good we are attempting to establish.
I wouldn’t have spent this time if I don’t feel strongly that Harris-Walz is the right direction. Nor would I stand so often if there wasn’t something very real to lose. I just wish you, and others like you who don’t speak up, would understand that. Y’know?
This is the first time I’ve said anything to you. I haven’t demanded any of your time.
I don’t feel you’ll have your mind or opinions changed by words on an online forum, largely due to how you don’t typically listen rationally.
Look at this thread. I’m being downvoted for correctly pointing out who was president of Ukraine during a particular event. For correctly pointing out when China last ruled Vietnam. For pointing out what “red scare” means.
If I fail to be persuaded by this particular online forum, it’s probably because this particular forum is showing me that it doesn’t care about facts.
We both deserve some level of respect, if only as fellow human beings.
Thank you. I appreciate you saying that, when so many others in this thread have used insults, called me stupid, and accused me of being a troll.
But you’re also being very condescending. (I’m sorry, I don’t know how else to respond to someone saying I “don’t typically listen rationally”.)
However, we are NOT MAGA. We do not subscribe willfully to a cult without first being tricked
Well, neither do the MAGA people. They’ve been tricked. They’re the product of fearmongering and misinformation.
I’ve always hoped that the antidote to that kind of hysteria was facts and information, and I’ve been frustrated that MAGA people (including those in my family) aren’t more receptive to facts. They’ve become skeptical of any information that isn’t presented to them by “their side”.
Now look at this thread. Facts are being downvoted. Anyone who disagrees with the Democrats must be an agent of Russian disinformation and we must distrust what they say (and we’ll yell at them and insult them for good measure). And heaven forbid that anyone criticize Harris. That’s what I mean by the Democrats becoming like MAGA.
If Harris or Walz or Obama or fucking Abraham Lincoln came back and began yelling about how they will become King
Trump didn’t say he would be a King.
Others said that the supreme court ruling made the president like a king. Maybe you’re thinking of that.
Trump also said he would be a dictator on Day 1 (by which he meant that he would pass a lot of laws by executive order on Day 1, not that he would rule like a dictator throughout his term in office). You might be thinking of that.
We follow those we follow because right now there aren’t many choices
Yeah, I understand that. I honestly do.
Like, when I say I’m leaning towards voting Trump, it’s not because I love Trump. I am similarly dealing with a lack of good options.
But backing a particular horse doesn’t mean you have to be uncritical of that horse and attack others who do criticize that horse. That’s where you start to seem like a cult.
Harris has said some good things. (Like, I think her housing initiative is very good.) But she’s also said some worrying things. (I’m currently quite rattled by her staunch pro-Israel speech, which has been followed by Israel attacking Lebanon.) I think the way to advocate for Harris is to point out what you like about her, rather than attacking people who criticize her.
You have though. In other threads, for other reasons. We have interacted. I recently re-read the Odyssey, so your name stuck with me. I know you get commonly downvoted and challenged, which is why I’m trying to be, well…hopefully understanding and not condescending. It’s a fine line to walk and one I’m not sure I’m wise enough to navigate accurately, something you in fact point out. I’m not really sure how to fix that.
The reason I responded is because we aren’t blindly supporting Harris, and many of us are tired of the shit flinging the Right tends to rely on. This is why I approached you here. It isn’t necessarily that we don’t agree with facts you may present, it’s that you appear to us to be attempting to discount a hope we have that Harris and now Walz represents.
You do you. I just see you comment on here often and I feel as if it must be disheartening to constantly be getting downvoted. Challenge the status quo, express unpopular opinions. If you want people to not get defensive though, try to meet them on their level a bit. Unlike MAGA, we are reasonable. We will criticize Harris. It’s just at the point where the alternative is so incredibly, maliciously evil that we, and I, legitimately fear them succeeding. We bite back because for years we were tolerant. Enough is enough.
I don’t know if you’ll listen or understand. I just put myself in your shoes and wanted to express what I feel must be some reasons why you seem to be disagreed with so often. Whatever others might believe, we need people who will speak out. This is just my lame attempt to make your words reach people more clearly.
I admire your effort here. I’m guessing this is how the Mods want us to engage with these kinds of people. The only reason this person won’t be responding back to you is he overstayed his welcome in this community and got escorted out, but I can imagine his response if he could reply.
IMO, this person was not here to challenge us or be challenged. He was here to attack the Left for a nefarious purpose, and Lemmy’s politics community trends left, so here he is. But if he’s sincere and not just wanting to get Trump in office, your advice about meeting us half-way would be very great for him to take, assuming he pops in with a new account…
That’s unfortunate. We really do need voices that are willing to speak out, even if it means being looked at as some naysayer. It just has to be done with reason and patience, which can be tough to achieve.
Anyway, I appreciate you letting me know! A little bit of tapping away on my phone to maybe change a mind for the better is a small price. Even if most of those who do come here with an agenda are unlikely to listen. Ah well! I tried!
Yeah, I guess that’s all you can do. I’m all good with people who are willing to speak out and call us out on our bullshit, but not if their answer is ‘vote third party or stay home’. There’s real harm to people I care about in that course of action!
I’ll add misleading verbiage to that short-list. We are not the “same party” or “blueMAGA”. Not only is it insulting, it is also purposefully spreading misinformation, and is worth fighting against.
However, we are NOT MAGA […] we want what’s best for everyone in this country, including those on the Right.
Are you sure? Because, by the way, people in this thread have called me dipship, shithead, idiot, moron, puppet, troll, and told me to fuck off multiple times, invariably with a slew of upvotes.
And why? Because I said I don’t think Gabbard is a Russian asset? They’re making excuses for supporting genocide, but I’m the one who deserves abuse?
And you want me to believe that Democrats aren’t like MAGA? It sure looks like MAGA to me, and you’re telling me to not believe my own eyes. (Maybe easy for you when you’re not the one being abused for the crime of disagreeing with people.)
Maybe the Democrats have become MAGA and you just don’t want to notice it.
No, we’re not like MAGA. I can’t speak for everyone in this case, I am sure there are some who will take it too far. That’s part of the nature of divisiveness. That said, let me make a list of what those on the left do agree on:
Universal healthcare
Positive, even progressive, policies and direction
Federal support of the 4-day work week
Stronger emphasis and follow-thru on climate change
Ending the war in Ukraine (not to the disadvantage of the Ukrainians or advantage of Putin) and the situation in Gaza
Slashing of the military budget (goes alongside universal healthcare)
Liveable wages and reasonable new childcare leave for any parent
Affordable education
Affordable life-saving drugs/life-changing drugs such as anti-depression meds AND universal acceptance of therapy
Businesses, owners, CEOs, and the billionaire class being held accountable
Trump. Prison. NOW
Increase on 1% taxes
Women’s reproductive rights
Minority rights
Gerrymandering limitations or outright ban
Burning down the electoral college
More than two viable political parties
I’m sure some stuff is missing. Ya’ll have to forgive me, I did my best off top of my head.
Somewhat more controversial is how some of us are tired of averting our eyes and turning our gazes away. Moreover, the Republicans play dirty. They fling shit, set fire to conversations, attempt to hide in plain sight in forums claiming to be someone else, will break laws if it means hurting someone they don’t like, and they may even attempt to overthrow a country. Let me just grab the citation on that last one.
We are not like MAGA. We are sick of the shit. I was one of the people who pushed for us to stop being so damned tolerant BECAUSE tolerance is a BIG reason why we’re where we are now. We believe in what’s on that list for the benefit of all. Republicans fight against it for the benefit of the few, and more importantly the injuring of those they do not like.
So when you call us blueMAGA. When you claim we are no better. Yeah, Homerian, we tell you to suck it, because it’s not true.
Btw, if Harris-Walz turned and started spouting MAGA bs, we’d turn on them in a heartbeat. We do not want a Trump or a MAGA in sheep’s clothing.
By the way, the Democrats didn’t become this way overnight. They were steered this way by their leadership.
The party in general follows the direction of the leaders. The people here are calling Gabbard a Russian agent because Hillary Clinton did that in 2016. The people here are okay with supporting Israel’s genocide because Biden said he supports Israel.
I will be watching over the next two months to see if Harris and Walz can steer the party back to sanity, but so far it’s not looking good.
Lol they are dumb as fuck but I almost admire their tenacity.
I guess I want to be 100% sure that Democrats are a lost cause before I give up on them.
I stupidly keep hoping Democrats will be rational enough to yield to facts. (Democrats are always saying that they’re the rational side of politics in this country.) But I’m realizing Democrats have become nothing more than BlueMAGA.
Homerian, I’ve been rather patient. We both deserve some level of respect, if only as fellow human beings. So when I ask people to move along it’s because I don’t feel you’ll have your mind or opinions changed by words on an online forum, largely due to how you don’t typically listen rationally.
Among other reasons, most of us who lean Left recognize that there are commonalities and where comparisons can be made between the radicalization of the Right, and some of the more radical positions those on the Left can take. We also know not every position taken on any side is inherently good or bad. For the most part we make judgment calls, which is why there are so many groups with even small differences in opinion not-on-the-Right and why we bicker. It’s a weakness we have as a larger community.
However, we are NOT MAGA. We do not subscribe willfully to a cult without first being tricked, nor do we go out of our way to cause harm. If Harris or Walz or Obama or fucking Abraham Lincoln came back and began yelling about how they will become King and suppress minorities, etc, we would absolutely turn against them. We follow those we follow because right now there aren’t many choices, something we intend to change. We see that this is a step in the right direction, and a big one at that. Despite our honestly very valid hatred of Trump and the modern GOP, we want what’s best for everyone in this country, including those on the Right. This is why we challenge you constantly. Because you’re someone that wants to speak out and we strongly feel that despite your arguments you are not making strong cases, and certainly appear to be working against this greater good we are attempting to establish.
I wouldn’t have spent this time if I don’t feel strongly that Harris-Walz is the right direction. Nor would I stand so often if there wasn’t something very real to lose. I just wish you, and others like you who don’t speak up, would understand that. Y’know?
You’ve been patient with me?
This is the first time I’ve said anything to you. I haven’t demanded any of your time.
Look at this thread. I’m being downvoted for correctly pointing out who was president of Ukraine during a particular event. For correctly pointing out when China last ruled Vietnam. For pointing out what “red scare” means.
If I fail to be persuaded by this particular online forum, it’s probably because this particular forum is showing me that it doesn’t care about facts.
Thank you. I appreciate you saying that, when so many others in this thread have used insults, called me stupid, and accused me of being a troll.
But you’re also being very condescending. (I’m sorry, I don’t know how else to respond to someone saying I “don’t typically listen rationally”.)
Well, neither do the MAGA people. They’ve been tricked. They’re the product of fearmongering and misinformation.
I’ve always hoped that the antidote to that kind of hysteria was facts and information, and I’ve been frustrated that MAGA people (including those in my family) aren’t more receptive to facts. They’ve become skeptical of any information that isn’t presented to them by “their side”.
Now look at this thread. Facts are being downvoted. Anyone who disagrees with the Democrats must be an agent of Russian disinformation and we must distrust what they say (and we’ll yell at them and insult them for good measure). And heaven forbid that anyone criticize Harris. That’s what I mean by the Democrats becoming like MAGA.
Trump didn’t say he would be a King.
Others said that the supreme court ruling made the president like a king. Maybe you’re thinking of that.
Trump also said he would be a dictator on Day 1 (by which he meant that he would pass a lot of laws by executive order on Day 1, not that he would rule like a dictator throughout his term in office). You might be thinking of that.
Yeah, I understand that. I honestly do.
Like, when I say I’m leaning towards voting Trump, it’s not because I love Trump. I am similarly dealing with a lack of good options.
But backing a particular horse doesn’t mean you have to be uncritical of that horse and attack others who do criticize that horse. That’s where you start to seem like a cult.
Harris has said some good things. (Like, I think her housing initiative is very good.) But she’s also said some worrying things. (I’m currently quite rattled by her staunch pro-Israel speech, which has been followed by Israel attacking Lebanon.) I think the way to advocate for Harris is to point out what you like about her, rather than attacking people who criticize her.
I just want the best for people too.
You have though. In other threads, for other reasons. We have interacted. I recently re-read the Odyssey, so your name stuck with me. I know you get commonly downvoted and challenged, which is why I’m trying to be, well…hopefully understanding and not condescending. It’s a fine line to walk and one I’m not sure I’m wise enough to navigate accurately, something you in fact point out. I’m not really sure how to fix that.
The reason I responded is because we aren’t blindly supporting Harris, and many of us are tired of the shit flinging the Right tends to rely on. This is why I approached you here. It isn’t necessarily that we don’t agree with facts you may present, it’s that you appear to us to be attempting to discount a hope we have that Harris and now Walz represents.
You do you. I just see you comment on here often and I feel as if it must be disheartening to constantly be getting downvoted. Challenge the status quo, express unpopular opinions. If you want people to not get defensive though, try to meet them on their level a bit. Unlike MAGA, we are reasonable. We will criticize Harris. It’s just at the point where the alternative is so incredibly, maliciously evil that we, and I, legitimately fear them succeeding. We bite back because for years we were tolerant. Enough is enough.
I don’t know if you’ll listen or understand. I just put myself in your shoes and wanted to express what I feel must be some reasons why you seem to be disagreed with so often. Whatever others might believe, we need people who will speak out. This is just my lame attempt to make your words reach people more clearly.
I admire your effort here. I’m guessing this is how the Mods want us to engage with these kinds of people. The only reason this person won’t be responding back to you is he overstayed his welcome in this community and got escorted out, but I can imagine his response if he could reply.
IMO, this person was not here to challenge us or be challenged. He was here to attack the Left for a nefarious purpose, and Lemmy’s politics community trends left, so here he is. But if he’s sincere and not just wanting to get Trump in office, your advice about meeting us half-way would be very great for him to take, assuming he pops in with a new account…
That’s unfortunate. We really do need voices that are willing to speak out, even if it means being looked at as some naysayer. It just has to be done with reason and patience, which can be tough to achieve.
Anyway, I appreciate you letting me know! A little bit of tapping away on my phone to maybe change a mind for the better is a small price. Even if most of those who do come here with an agenda are unlikely to listen. Ah well! I tried!
Yeah, I guess that’s all you can do. I’m all good with people who are willing to speak out and call us out on our bullshit, but not if their answer is ‘vote third party or stay home’. There’s real harm to people I care about in that course of action!
I’ll add misleading verbiage to that short-list. We are not the “same party” or “blueMAGA”. Not only is it insulting, it is also purposefully spreading misinformation, and is worth fighting against.
Oh. My apologies for not recognizing your username.
Troll response
Press downvote to doubt…
Are you sure? Because, by the way, people in this thread have called me dipship, shithead, idiot, moron, puppet, troll, and told me to fuck off multiple times, invariably with a slew of upvotes.
And why? Because I said I don’t think Gabbard is a Russian asset? They’re making excuses for supporting genocide, but I’m the one who deserves abuse?
And you want me to believe that Democrats aren’t like MAGA? It sure looks like MAGA to me, and you’re telling me to not believe my own eyes. (Maybe easy for you when you’re not the one being abused for the crime of disagreeing with people.)
Maybe the Democrats have become MAGA and you just don’t want to notice it.
No, we’re not like MAGA. I can’t speak for everyone in this case, I am sure there are some who will take it too far. That’s part of the nature of divisiveness. That said, let me make a list of what those on the left do agree on:
I’m sure some stuff is missing. Ya’ll have to forgive me, I did my best off top of my head.
Somewhat more controversial is how some of us are tired of averting our eyes and turning our gazes away. Moreover, the Republicans play dirty. They fling shit, set fire to conversations, attempt to hide in plain sight in forums claiming to be someone else, will break laws if it means hurting someone they don’t like, and they may even attempt to overthrow a country. Let me just grab the citation on that last one.
We are not like MAGA. We are sick of the shit. I was one of the people who pushed for us to stop being so damned tolerant BECAUSE tolerance is a BIG reason why we’re where we are now. We believe in what’s on that list for the benefit of all. Republicans fight against it for the benefit of the few, and more importantly the injuring of those they do not like.
So when you call us blueMAGA. When you claim we are no better. Yeah, Homerian, we tell you to suck it, because it’s not true.
Btw, if Harris-Walz turned and started spouting MAGA bs, we’d turn on them in a heartbeat. We do not want a Trump or a MAGA in sheep’s clothing.
By the way, the Democrats didn’t become this way overnight. They were steered this way by their leadership.
The party in general follows the direction of the leaders. The people here are calling Gabbard a Russian agent because Hillary Clinton did that in 2016. The people here are okay with supporting Israel’s genocide because Biden said he supports Israel.
I will be watching over the next two months to see if Harris and Walz can steer the party back to sanity, but so far it’s not looking good.