Killing child pornographers that would fight to continue producing child pornography is not a controversial or complicated idea. Identify the group, get rid of it. If they won’t stop voluntarily, kill them. That’s direct action and community defense. Cornerstones of libertarian ideology.
First, by what authority can a libertarian society kill another? Should there be some sort of trial? Or do you propose we just ride and kill anyone we deem undesirable? And where’s the line? Certainly it’s pretty easy to argue that child porn producers and slavers might qualify but what of others? How do you deal with the majority falling into fascism and deciding “You know what, the Catholics are a plague on society and we should eliminate them.”
I’m not going to get into the cult bit, that’s an entirely different conversation.
You should, because cults are very real things that would thrive under most libertarian models. They also show a real big problem, with unchecked power it’s pretty easy to seriously abuse societies members. Even when they technically have the freedom to leave. What happens if we remove all checks to cults? Do we decide to kill them too when the decide not to continue?
The decision to kill would an act of defense. Organized sex trafficking preys on members of a community. If you see it happen, stop it. If that means killing the perpetrator, you’d need to justify it to your community, but you don’t have to kill them to stop it. If you’re going to go after the organization, then the course of action would be decided by those impacted by the organization, either by vote or by consensus, whichever applies to your community. And that decision making process goes for essentially anything within a community. Again, check out democratic confederalism and anarcho-syndicalism for in depth explanations.
What you’re describing in the second bit is genocide, not fascism. Fascism wouldn’t manifest in a bottom-up society. It’s a hierarchical system. By the time a society devolves into fascism, it would have ceased being a libertarian society long before. As for how to stop genocide, just don’t do it? It’s a form of dominance, same as other things we’ve discussed. Stand with with oppressed, support their liberation and directly act to fight alongside them if you’re able to.
And I’m not that knowledgeable on cults, I’m sure someone out there has thought about it but that’s not me. Again, they exist now and we’re not doing anything about them. When the state steps in, they’ve gone disastrously. Jonestown comes to mind. Attempts to bring people out of them are by and large grassroots movements and non-profits. Both of those systems would thrive in a libertarian model and they would have a lot less red tape to contend with in order to liberate the cult members.
What checks to cults do we currently have? The LDS church, Jehovah’s witnesses, and scientologists are absolutely massive cults that (with the exception of the Jehovah’s witnesses) have infiltrated every level of government. Why hasn’t the state eliminated cults if they’re so capable?
The decision to kill would an act of defense. Organized sex trafficking preys on members of a community. If you see it happen, stop it. If that means killing the perpetrator, you’d need to justify it to your community, but you don’t have to kill them to stop it.
The argument you use there is the same argument used for genocide “We had to defend ourselves from X who are corrupting our society and way of life!”. The appeal to community only works if the community doesn’t hold prejudices against others.
But further, not how sex trafficking/child porn works. It’s not this secret cabal of kidnappers stealing babies in the night. Sex trafficking is almost always perpetrated by a trusted individual. Where this gets real bad is cults like the Oneida cult which pushed for free love of children. And this gets back to my original point, how does the community address a problem when the community IS the problem?
Both of those systems would thrive in a libertarian model and they would have a lot less red tape to contend with in order to liberate the cult members.
Red tape is not what stops people from addressing cults. It’s actually funny you mention Jonestown and mormons because both movements famously relocated their members to escape government control and interference. So you are saying that a libertarian model with even less government control would somehow end cults faster? I really suggest you read up on how cults function and move because quiet literally they are hoping and looking for libertarian areas to setup shop. Cults LOVE to pick and take over small remote locations precisely to escape the pesky government red tape and oversight. (see: Rajneeshpuram as an example).
What checks to cults do we currently have?
Not enough, but more than you’d expect. You can leave a cult, sue it if they start tracking you. Cults that abuse children (such as the FLDS) can be dismantled and their leaders arrested. Cults that physically harm or imprison their members can be subjected to legal actions (which is why scientologists put their member prison in international waters). Certainly the current system isn’t perfect, slow evolution is the nature of centralized governments. However, that slow evolution also (usually) prevents overreaction.
Why hasn’t the state eliminated cults if they’re so capable?
It’s not a question of elimination. You can’t eliminate cults anymore than you could eliminate religion itself. (and, in fact, it’s likely easier to eliminate religion as there are non-religious cults). The question is one of harm reduction to citizens. One of checks and balances to make sure the state isn’t overreaching while simultaneously penalizing organizations that do. It’s a game of cat and mouse, ultimately. The issue is these are things only fixed by regulation. Take away all the regulation and you are basically just saying “Well, hopefully that cult will sort itself out”.
Jonestown is a really good example of why just leaving them alone is a bad idea. Jonestown happened because the leader of that movement became so paranoid that when a senator visited the community, that was enough to have him push for mass suicide.
Just for your future arguments, ruby ridge is a much better example of centralized government absolutely doing the wrong thing.
I’m honestly not that interested in making further arguments in defense of libertarian socialism. You seem to be more interested in pedantic nit picking about highly speculative models for an ideal society. A lot of this is relying on the idea that society is structured in a similar way, that material conditions that lead to the formation of these things will exist in their current form and that people inherently have ill intentions. You think people will more or less be the same post revolution, or even decades down the line.
I’m not sure what ideology you personally hold, but I’d encourage you to ask the same questions and turn that critical lens inward. You won’t like the answers. You may even find some of those base deficiencies indefensible. You have seemingly thought about libertarian socialism a fair bit, but you’re clearly lacking in theory and the ability to think within the framework. Your criticism falls flat because of that. If you’d like all the theory and no filler without reading a bunch of books I’ll link Anark’s A Modern Anarchism series on YouTube. It’s a synthesis of many libertarian schoolsof thought into an ideological framework that takes into account many developments over the decade. You’re so convinced that you know what’s right for the world, why not hear the other sides reasoning?
Fwiw I don’t think you’re a dick or anything, perhaps a little frustrating but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. I’ve enjoyed this but I just don’t have the energy for it anymore. I hope you have a good rest of your day and that you give those videos a listen, it’s.good stuff. If you don’t mind me asking, where are you coming from and do you have any suggestions for theory that would allow me to better understand where you’re coming from? Books, videos, podcasts, whatever. I’m always looking to better understand other people’s world view
First, by what authority can a libertarian society kill another? Should there be some sort of trial? Or do you propose we just ride and kill anyone we deem undesirable? And where’s the line? Certainly it’s pretty easy to argue that child porn producers and slavers might qualify but what of others? How do you deal with the majority falling into fascism and deciding “You know what, the Catholics are a plague on society and we should eliminate them.”
You should, because cults are very real things that would thrive under most libertarian models. They also show a real big problem, with unchecked power it’s pretty easy to seriously abuse societies members. Even when they technically have the freedom to leave. What happens if we remove all checks to cults? Do we decide to kill them too when the decide not to continue?
The decision to kill would an act of defense. Organized sex trafficking preys on members of a community. If you see it happen, stop it. If that means killing the perpetrator, you’d need to justify it to your community, but you don’t have to kill them to stop it. If you’re going to go after the organization, then the course of action would be decided by those impacted by the organization, either by vote or by consensus, whichever applies to your community. And that decision making process goes for essentially anything within a community. Again, check out democratic confederalism and anarcho-syndicalism for in depth explanations.
What you’re describing in the second bit is genocide, not fascism. Fascism wouldn’t manifest in a bottom-up society. It’s a hierarchical system. By the time a society devolves into fascism, it would have ceased being a libertarian society long before. As for how to stop genocide, just don’t do it? It’s a form of dominance, same as other things we’ve discussed. Stand with with oppressed, support their liberation and directly act to fight alongside them if you’re able to.
And I’m not that knowledgeable on cults, I’m sure someone out there has thought about it but that’s not me. Again, they exist now and we’re not doing anything about them. When the state steps in, they’ve gone disastrously. Jonestown comes to mind. Attempts to bring people out of them are by and large grassroots movements and non-profits. Both of those systems would thrive in a libertarian model and they would have a lot less red tape to contend with in order to liberate the cult members.
What checks to cults do we currently have? The LDS church, Jehovah’s witnesses, and scientologists are absolutely massive cults that (with the exception of the Jehovah’s witnesses) have infiltrated every level of government. Why hasn’t the state eliminated cults if they’re so capable?
The argument you use there is the same argument used for genocide “We had to defend ourselves from X who are corrupting our society and way of life!”. The appeal to community only works if the community doesn’t hold prejudices against others.
But further, not how sex trafficking/child porn works. It’s not this secret cabal of kidnappers stealing babies in the night. Sex trafficking is almost always perpetrated by a trusted individual. Where this gets real bad is cults like the Oneida cult which pushed for free love of children. And this gets back to my original point, how does the community address a problem when the community IS the problem?
Red tape is not what stops people from addressing cults. It’s actually funny you mention Jonestown and mormons because both movements famously relocated their members to escape government control and interference. So you are saying that a libertarian model with even less government control would somehow end cults faster? I really suggest you read up on how cults function and move because quiet literally they are hoping and looking for libertarian areas to setup shop. Cults LOVE to pick and take over small remote locations precisely to escape the pesky government red tape and oversight. (see: Rajneeshpuram as an example).
Not enough, but more than you’d expect. You can leave a cult, sue it if they start tracking you. Cults that abuse children (such as the FLDS) can be dismantled and their leaders arrested. Cults that physically harm or imprison their members can be subjected to legal actions (which is why scientologists put their member prison in international waters). Certainly the current system isn’t perfect, slow evolution is the nature of centralized governments. However, that slow evolution also (usually) prevents overreaction.
It’s not a question of elimination. You can’t eliminate cults anymore than you could eliminate religion itself. (and, in fact, it’s likely easier to eliminate religion as there are non-religious cults). The question is one of harm reduction to citizens. One of checks and balances to make sure the state isn’t overreaching while simultaneously penalizing organizations that do. It’s a game of cat and mouse, ultimately. The issue is these are things only fixed by regulation. Take away all the regulation and you are basically just saying “Well, hopefully that cult will sort itself out”.
Jonestown is a really good example of why just leaving them alone is a bad idea. Jonestown happened because the leader of that movement became so paranoid that when a senator visited the community, that was enough to have him push for mass suicide.
Just for your future arguments, ruby ridge is a much better example of centralized government absolutely doing the wrong thing.
I’m honestly not that interested in making further arguments in defense of libertarian socialism. You seem to be more interested in pedantic nit picking about highly speculative models for an ideal society. A lot of this is relying on the idea that society is structured in a similar way, that material conditions that lead to the formation of these things will exist in their current form and that people inherently have ill intentions. You think people will more or less be the same post revolution, or even decades down the line.
I’m not sure what ideology you personally hold, but I’d encourage you to ask the same questions and turn that critical lens inward. You won’t like the answers. You may even find some of those base deficiencies indefensible. You have seemingly thought about libertarian socialism a fair bit, but you’re clearly lacking in theory and the ability to think within the framework. Your criticism falls flat because of that. If you’d like all the theory and no filler without reading a bunch of books I’ll link Anark’s A Modern Anarchism series on YouTube. It’s a synthesis of many libertarian schoolsof thought into an ideological framework that takes into account many developments over the decade. You’re so convinced that you know what’s right for the world, why not hear the other sides reasoning?
Fwiw I don’t think you’re a dick or anything, perhaps a little frustrating but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. I’ve enjoyed this but I just don’t have the energy for it anymore. I hope you have a good rest of your day and that you give those videos a listen, it’s.good stuff. If you don’t mind me asking, where are you coming from and do you have any suggestions for theory that would allow me to better understand where you’re coming from? Books, videos, podcasts, whatever. I’m always looking to better understand other people’s world view
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