Truth is the second option one is just a normal ass guy. Everyone has emotions and needs. The fact is it’s still taboo to be a “man” and have emotions.
Like honestly tell me any other option on there is preferable to someone with emotions… She acting like women don’t require the same thing? Gtfoh. It’s not even a bad thing. It’s just a human thing.
What she’s referring to isn’t the same as having emotions. She means the people who expect everyone around them, especially their romantic partner, to manage their emotions for them. Plenty of women do it, too.
No, that’s the narcissist. She’s referring to having to help someone with their emotional needs. Sounds moreso like she needs to work on her own if it’s laborious to support her partner emotionally.
Expecting your partner to be your personal therapist is not cool but it’s also not necessarily narcissism.
Ah, so they key is to have your own therapist, and a partner that doesn’t give two shits about your emotional well being. gotcha.
cuz being an emotionally supportive partner means becoming their personal therapist. cool cool, you sound fun
Who said anything about that? You can share your emotions with your partner in a way where you don’t expect them to be your personal therapist. Generally, it’s healthy to have a support network, preferably not just one person and especially not just one person who isn’t even a professional.
When you share your feelings with a therapist, that exchange is in one direction, you should never have to emotionally support your therapist. That is however not how it should be with a partner, in a romantic relationship both people should be able to share their emotions and receive support, and that isn’t possible if one person is treating the other as if they were a therapist and not giving them the space to share their emotions in turn.
Most things in life are about balance, just because you don’t agree with something all the way one side (e.g. there is no way to create an unhealthy relationship dynamic by sharing your emotions, regardless of how you do it) doesn’t mean that you agree with something all the way to the other side (i.e. you shouldn’t give two shits about your partner’s emotional well-being).
in a romantic relationship both people should be able to share their emotions and receive support
Expecting your partner to be your personal therapist is not cool
I was replying to someone up there who was shitting on men with emotions. Because they equated having them with being a bad partner. My point is that emotions are normal and wanting an emotionally supportive partner isn’t the same as treating them like a therapist.
Who was shitting on men with emotions? I haven’t seen that at all.
wanting an emotionally supportive partner isn’t the same as treating them like a therapist
We agree on that, you can do one without doing the other.
I don’t know anyone like that. I do know we are plenty of people who are drama queens.
But that’s not really the same thing as having emotions people with functional emotions are actually fine, it’s the ones that don’t have emotions but do have an awful lot of opinions that are the problem.
one of the main points and benefits of a relationship is being able to share problems with someone else and have someone that could cheer you up or to share excitement with
‘emotional labor’ is for actual jobs, especially customer service type jobs
Yea, but if you’re trauma dumping on your partner every time you see them that’s not healthy or fair to them.
Oh so that’s why relationships feel like jobs.
Only if you’re doing them wrong
Relationships only really feel like jobs in this way when you feel your effort is not being reciprocated. Doing emotional labour for your partner is not exhausting if you feel like you are equally pulling each other up.
She’s referring to overly emotional men, who need extra attention; guys who can’t handle failure or rejection, who have a bad day at work and then can’t help around the house at all at night and who expect their partner to take care of them, regardless of how their partner’s day went. I know the type of dude she’s talking about and I wouldn’t want my daughter to bring one home. Dude needs a mother not a partner.
Nope this is a list of all the men available, like she said. She’s painting all emotional men with the same brush. There are good men and bad men in each of those categories she listed, but she thinks we’re all bad.
So I cry and need a hug sometimes? Emotional labor. I can describe the full range of emotions I feel to a partner and deal with them in a healthy way? Gross.
You have a victim mentality. You are looking for this stuff and you’re finding it. The post does not say that.
“As we seek so shall we find.”
I know who I am. I’m just reading what she said. That’s the dating pool.
Let me ask you this:
How could a decent man possibly respond to a post like that without being lumped into it, like you just did to me?
They could not respond, just be present at home with their family.
Yes, I suppose we could just become more silent and withdrawn, couldn’t we?
Let me try a different tack. I know I have issues. I’ve been working on myself for years. As men, we mostly experience negative reinforcement with emotional growth.
But if we are trying to get healthy, how are we supposed to respond to that kind of invalidating talk, inside our own heads? What if the woman saying that kind of stuff isn’t just venting her frustration onto the internet, what if she’s saying it to us, in a relationship? Does that kind of talk inspire us to improve or push us into darker places? Is complaining about us like this in any way helping to improve the way men and women interact?
Once again you’re making it the woman’s job to help you improve yourself. You’re going to see and hear things that put you in a dark place. That’s life. Bringing yourself back to a middle ground of contendedness requires constant self work.
I’m sorry you have problems. Not everyone breaks the wheel.
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So she wants a guy with a low sex drive, who she doesnt have to have any emotional attachment to, but who emotionally invested in her, that doesnt have any self confidence, and doesnt know any feminist theory so he cant tell he’s in a toxic relationship and doesnt treat her like “shit” (an equal)
is it too much to ask for?
Sounds like she’ll shout: “worship me as I am your goddess” and “I demand tribute” on a regular basis.
Is that not a normal thing to do?
That depends, are you a goa’uld?
Depends on the context.
In the bedroom: yes
In a Porsche showroom: no
Some guys are into that
Tell me you’ve never actually dated a grown-up woman before.
Just do a hit and run, bro 😂
So just a vibrator and a dozen Facebook huns.
When did she say she wanted a man with low sex drive? Being a porn addict doesn’t mean you have a high sex drive. It means you’re addicted to pornography.
When did she say any of what you wrote? Have you heard of being an even-tempered man who has sex with women but doesn’t degrade them or neg them in order to do it, who doesn’t need to trauma-dump on their gf because they’ve already worked through their shit? Your inference into what she posted tells us more about you than her.
Yes please take my dumb lemmy comment about a dumb 4chan post about a dumb tweet extremely seriously and try to start an argument with me by attacking my character. That’s a very good use of your time.
Hmm I think you might be some of the red flags she’s talking about especially the manipulative one.
She literally said she doesn’t want a guy who is sensitive and doesn’t want a guy who is emotionally distant. Make it make sense.
I’m not saying I agree with the meme, but that part makes sense to me. Am I really the only one who has met both types of dysfunctional people? Some people are extremely emotionally demanding, where they need constant reassurance and support, and others are completely detached, so that there’s hardly emotional connection at all.
Being healthy is almost always about achieving the mean between extremes.
Well then that’s because you had a READING FAIL or you’re playing syntax argument and pretending that you’re confused.
Of course It wouldn’t make sense if you stopped reading after the first two words out of two entire sentences. Each point had descriptions but you’re ignoring them just to launch into a pitchfork argument. This is ‘Syntax’ argument. That’s some bad actor energy right there at worst. red herring argument at best.
So you’re Confused? Go back and reread for more than two words per line. Sound it out loud if you’re still ‘confused’. Talk to an English teacher if need be.
But personally I don’t believe you are confused. Not today, lil incel. Ya blocked.
That seems a bit hard on the dudes.
It’s kinda exhausting seeing progressive language constantly used to rag on men. I want men to be anti-racist / feminist / LGBT allies / etc. I get that there are a lot of problems with many streams of masculinity and people who have been hurt by those have a right to complain, but goddamn. I would not expect lots of women to be attracted to a movement that constantly complains about women.
That’s why a lot of people oppose third wave feminism. It stop being about uplifting women and about pushing men down to achieve the goals. It forgot that the original goal was to raise the standards for everyone to equality.
A lot of males face issues that women face as well. But when there’s a portion of people basically saying you’re scum for being born a man… It’s very tiring and eventually it starts to feel like “well if you don’t care about me, why should I keep caring about you?”
you’re scum for being born a man
No people in the real world say this. This is something that exists purely in social media and the anonymous Internet.
This whole thread seems filled with people who view men as victims of something. They aren’t.
A man can be a victim, sure.
Men, as a group, are not general victims of anything they didn’t choose.
No people in the real world say this
I’ve heard similar things from women when I was in college, and not someone joking around or being ironic.
This whole thread seems filled with people who view men as victims of something. They aren’t.
This is a thread of men supporting each other emotionally, and venting about how society largely disregards any problems that affect primarily men. There are a few shithead bigots who are gonna try to shove in their vile opinions, but they’re all pretty down voted and a small minority. All the top level discussion seems pretty reasonable to me, and venting about the very thing you’re doing with this statement.
Men, as a group, are not general victims of anything they didn’t choose.
I don’t think the young men in Russia who were forcefully conscripted and sent to die in the Ukrainian war (or a Russian prison) chose to do so. You can’t just generalize the struggles of an entire demographic and brush them aside as their fault. It reminds me of the rhetoric of women being sexually assaulted because they dressed a certain way. It’s extremely sexist and gets us absolutely nowhere, only pushing people further into extremes.
Men, in general, have higher job mortality rates, higher suicide rates, shorter life expectancy, and higher homelessness rates to name a few things. None of us “chose” this. However, because the problems affect men they’re often swept aside.
You can benefit from a system in some ways while still being a victim of it in others. I completely agree that much more work needs to be done for women and people of color, and that there are much worse/more skewed injustices that they face (which is why that’s where society’s focus is/should be right now). However, that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t acknowledge the struggles men face when they’re brought up.
If men feel like their struggles are not being acknowledged enough, all they have to do is acknowledge them. I mean, we do live in a pretty patriarchal society.
Men are not a monolith. Many men would like their struggles acknowledged, while other men verbally abuse them for doing so.
Someone, somewhere, says this unironically. If you want to avoid pedantic arguments about the meanings of words, use “virtually no one in real life says this.” When you say “no one says this,” two or three examples of people saying it is evidence against you. When you say “virtually no one says this in real life,” those two or three examples become evidence that it’s hard to find people actually saying it
You are right.
when there’s a portion of people basically saying you’re scum for being born a man
There is no way of changing these people’s minds, they invariably tend to be zero-sum absolutionists. Any attempt to prove them otherwise will only trigger their victimization complexes.
The only effective strategy is to not engage in the first place, to avoid having anything to do with them even if they are blood and especially if they can be easily avoided.
Unfortunately, this attitude is also held by the vast majority of vocal feminists… which, if you are actively dating, ought to make this one of the first red flags you should be looking for to make women self-select themselves out of contention.
After all, you don’t want to be with someone who hates you for what you are. Leave those venomous vipers on the branch, where they belong.
And yes, this entire strategy works equally as well in the other direction, for women. The difference is that women are far more effectively avoiding men with these red flags than men are at avoiding women with these red flags. Far too many men are far too thirsty to think straight where women are concerned.
Yeah, everyone knows it’s so easy being male that literally anything bad that ever happens to one has to be 100% their own fault.
Not particularly realistic, but people go ahead and “know” it anyway.
When h3h3 wasn’t what it is now, on one of these cases/stories Ethan said something like:
“I’m sure many white males are watching this with their average to below average life, and ask: Where is my privilege?”
And yeah there is truth in that…
The problem is people like Ethan (as well as many feminists) dont understand what privilege theory actually is.
I think its always best to explain it with disabilities first.
Like you, as an abled body person, have certain advantages in life over someone who has to use a wheelchair. Even if the guy in a wheelchair becomes a multimillionaire tech CEO and you are homeless, you still have that “privilege” over him in that the world is built to suit you much more than it is him as wheelchair access is often an after-thought , you have more potential job opportunities than he does and people consider you “normal” vs the guy in the wheelchair always being associated with his disability.
You do not automatically live a life of luxury just because you have the “privilege” of an able body, just like with male privilege, or white privilege or any other privilege. It just means you have less obstacles getting in the way of your success.
Yes but a lot of people seem to think that if you have less obstacles in your way that means that no one should be concerned about the obstacles that still are in your way.
Just because life is theoretically more difficult for one class of person does not mean that another class of person cannot be allowed to also experience difficulties.
People who were not privileged use it as a weapon to hit everyone else over the head, even when it’s inappropriate. Especially when it’s inappropriate.
People who were not privileged use it as a weapon to hit everyone else over the head, even when it’s inappropriate. Especially when it’s inappropriate.
I think it’s important to state that isn’t not people who aren’t privileged in general that do this but a very small minority. And its often people who are actually very privileged that try to leverage the one aspect in which they’re not, that do this.
Please remember that the nature of the internet means you see the loud and angry people (as well as trolls) what more often than anyone else.
Well the average person is pretty stupid, so I’m not surprised
That seems a bit hard on the dudes.
Fitting since it’s a discussion about dating pool. It’s not pretty out there for guys
Cause thats unusual…
I have no idea who this chick is, but it aint exactly a string of hits for us guys out here either. People suck in general.
Well, if we’re generalizing THAT much, the dating pool for guys is just as bad.
We’ve got:
-women who will go out with you just for a free dinner date, then never talk to you again
-women who are looking for sugar daddies
-women obsessed with their socials (IG, TikTok, etc)
-women so unnatural you question they can still be considered human (lip fillers, butt lifts, boob jobs, have you ever heard of the term “Bimbofication”?)
-all of the above
In reality, there are so many more people in this world that don’t fit any of these categories on the men or women side. It’s just that a lot of the “dating pool” she’s talking about is centered around dating apps. The real world is so much more diverse.
How about “astrology and crystals are my personality”
I was with a girl in her room and when she started teaching me about astrology, I just bursted out laughing with how dumb it was. Basically, what you just said before but 10x worse with this girl, there were rocks fucking everywhere. I’m suprised Hank from Breaking Bad didn’t show up.
Jesus Christ Marie, they’re minerals!
Hank was busy with a PTSD episode that day…
E: apparently I can’t spell a 4-letter word.
Your forgetting the “I have sex” girl.
Having sex is basically her whole personality.
Those women are the worst. Where do they hang out so I can avoid them?
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So she’s complaining about sensitive guys, but also doesn’t want them to be emotionally distant.
Basically wants the guy to do the “emotional labour” but not do any herself.
How to phrase this…
Women’s behavior towards men’s emotions is like…it’s their very very favorite TV show, but they hate almost all of the episodes. They want you to be emotional, they want you to be in touch with your feelings…until you actually do, and she throws the remote through the screen because it’s not one of the very few episodes of this show that she likes.
There are words I just don’t say out loud in any context anymore because of this. “Love” is one of them. One of my exes would throw a three act opera of a shit fit if I said something like “I love jalapenos on pizza” because “You’ll say you love PEPPERS but not ME!” Well yeah, Tiffany; 1 because the word has different meanings when applied to food vs applied to a person, and 2 we’ve been dating for five weeks at this point; I’m still in the stage of trying to determine if you’re sane enough to get serious with, and early exit polls aren’t looking very promising." So I say things like “I really enjoy jalapenos on pizza” and I sound like a cyborg but I’m not sitting through another fucking meltdown like that.
Its just a litany of performative complaints to get attention. Standard Social Media interaction bait. More people respond, your metrics go up, more businesses are willing to give you money to do native advertising on their behalf.
Exactly. Insert the word “woke” into any post and get that ragebait interaction.
Trolling has become incredibly easy on the modern internet. It was always pretty easy, but I feel like it used to have to have more juice, you know?
People used to be less jaded and fewer interactions used to be with LLMs.
Emotional Labor is for the individual to do. If you feel like you need help, that’s what a therapist is for. Do you expect a gf to be your therapist? Sharing and expressing feelings is a normal part of a relationship, but expecting your SO to also be your own personal therapist is completely unhealthy. Everyone has their own emotional Labor to do, why should anyone else (who’s not a therapist) be expected to do yours?
uhhh, yeah, my wife and i try to be the best therapist we can be for each other. not wanting to do that for the person you love seems weird to me.
I’m talking about an unhealthy codependency that can happen when someone with a developed fight-response pairs with someone with a developed fawn-response. It sounds like you two have a healthy relationship where you can discuss each other’s problems with each other freely. Which is good.
Personally, no I wouldn’t expect my partner to unravel my own personal cPTSD for me. I would work on it myself and with a therapist need be. Discussing my progress and thoughts on my own cPTSD and hearing my partner’s is a healthy thing to do.
Everyone has their own emotional Labor to do, why should anyone else (who’s not a therapist) be expected to do yours?
Because part of a healthy relationship involves sharing with your partner and helping them through their struggles, emotional or otherwise?
Sharing and expressing feelings is a normal part of a relationship, but expecting your SO to also be your own personal therapist is completely unhealthy
I literally said that. The difference is sharing your own progress in a healthy way compared to expecting your SO to do the progress for you
Relationships are emotional labor on both sides
Well, that post is a straight flush of red flags.
Thinking that someone else having emotions is work is definitely a major one.
Also I’m not sure what I’m supposed to do, if I’m emotional I’m bad, if I’m cold and distant I’m bad, what she want?
She wants you to be emotionally available for her, but not to be emotionally available for you. Avoid these people, men or women, for anything you’re not absolutely forced to.
I think she’s talking about people who need to be constantly emotionally validated, which can absolutely be emotionally draining, especially if you’re working through shit yourself.
Like, if your partner has BDD and you have to have a
conversationargument with them multiple times a day defending them from their own self loathing, that’s exhausting after a few years.I read this to refer to the way overly emotional guys that cannot handle failure or rejection.
Online is a perfect haven for predators so I cant fault her for acknowledging there are some if not many awful people out there(which are in all walks of life and not just preying on young women). If there weren’t there would be no need for moderators. So okay…Good for her for setting some standards but like she could just acknowledge it with her friends over coffee or have a p2p chat about it and maybe put together a game plan and do more deep dive on how to get more aware of when she’s getting used and tuck that away into her back pocket and rely on it when she needs and not set out to ‘teach all men a lesson about young women to be nicer only to them’.
Cuz if you start announcing things like she did and just going ‘no users!’ On a public profile this is just lazy filtering and airing personal baggage. At the very least you still have to give people a chance not to tick those boxes or get some counselling if you start predicting the worst of an entire group and start getting exclusionary and generalizing who’s victimized and who’s predatory based on age and gender like this.
Meanwhile the dating pool for men contains the following:
Crickets
No no, there’s tons and tons of scam accounts that all use the same pictures of a hot Asian supermodel, who all try to get you to buy them 10k of Bitcoin in exchange for the promise of a handy or whatever
I’ve seen her. Her breasts are like softballs duct taped to a broom.
Still would.
Requirements:
Woman (optional)
“No one wants to date me, it must be their fault.”
That comes with other connotations so we’ll say it’s just a joke for right now.
Awknowledging men don’t have many options isn’t the same thing as blaming women for the situation.
Maybe she should find someone outside those social media pools then.
Social Media Influencer: “All men are trash. Everyone I meet just wants to stare at me, fuck me, or use me as a trophy.”
Same Social Media Influencer: “Five Amazing Tricks to instantly get a stud’s attention. When his friends see you with him, they will be so jealous!”
The amount of “don’t sexualize me” women who then turn around and post explicit and obvious thirst traps is crazy.
The problem is that they’re talking to two completely different and separate groups of men: the bottom-90%, and the top-10%, respectively. They just don’t provide any such context, which turns this behaviour from mere hypocrisy into blatantly cruel hypocrisy.
they’re talking to two completely different and separate groups of men
I mostly see them talking to women, with the message being to hyper-individualize and consider everyone else as nothing more than an object of exploitation (because that’s how everyone sees you).
“Get the Top 10% Dude” messaging isn’t even really about the subset of men in question. Its just about extracting stuff from the highest value targets. It is the deep commodification of relationships.
I feel your explanation is equally as valid and likely (if not more so) as mine, you’re just seeing things from a different perspective.
isn’t even really about the subset of men in question. Its just about extracting stuff from the highest value targets.
Except the highest value targets tend to be the top-10% of men, which is why women tend to be deeply offended if anyone from the lower-90% actually makes an approach - dealing with that interruption is a massive waste of her time and efforts, which can be better spent targeting those high-value men and extracting value from them.
Hence that “don’t sexualize me” messaging - it’s meant to dissuade the low-value truly-nice guys (the non-sociopaths) who actually value and obey the wishes of women. It ensures that they self-select themselves out of contention for her attentions without her having to expend any energy on them, specifically.
women tend to be deeply offended if anyone from the lower-90% actually makes an approach
That has not been my experience. The single friends I know aren’t looking for a Top 10% Man nearly so much as they are looking for a guy who will just act normal. Don’t be a giant horndog. Don’t get violent when you’re upset. Don’t flake on dates. Don’t ask me to pay for everything.
Unfortunately, they’re all on the dating websites, and those sites are flooded with fuckbois, creeps, and assholes. Folks who, very likely, consider themselves in the Top 10%, but can’t maintain a relationship because they are so toxic.
it’s meant to dissuade the low-value truly-nice guys (the non-sociopaths) who actually value and obey the wishes of women
It isn’t meant to dissuade them because they’re invisible to people who spend all their time looking for love on these social media sites. The struggle to find nice, chill, normal guys is real. What’s more - and what really staggered me when we were hanging out - was how social media has degraded her ability to just… flirt with people in public. We were at a bar and there was a guy she saw who she thought was cute. And my wife goes over to tell him, “My friend thinks your cute can she buy you a drink?” and he says yes and comes over to chat, and she fucking flubs it! Just wiffs so hard! Complete emotion seize up. This woman is in her 30s and has hooked up online a thousand times, but as soon as she’s not using her phone she just face-plants.
Its the fucking apps, man. They are obliterating the ability for people to form normal human relationships. These social media gurus are feeding on that negative energy, and people are falling for it because they’ve forgotten how to communicate with one another normally.
You really don’t need to be in this mythical elite to get a girl. There are so many women who would love to have a bog-standard normal human dude. They aren’t trying to dissuade these people. They have just lost the social skills necessary to make a healthy human connection. All they know how to do anymore is hit the “Fuck Me” button and hope someone else hits it back.
Guys who ask you about your Linux distro on the first date (none of which are hard for enough)
> guys who post on lemmy
also raving communists
and Star Trek utopists
To be fair, that group also contains a fair amount of women.
People calling the effort you put in to support your partners, friends and family “emotional labor” are either blatantly misinformed or people who want a pass on not giving a shit about their “close ones”.
Emotional labor, as a term, was created to explain the difficulties and effort someone has to engage in to regulate their emotions when they’re constantly dealing with the suffering of other people during work. It’s valid, just as long as you use it in its appropriate context. This dumbass appropriation of the term by a certain branch of liberals is like if someone used the physical concept of entropy to justify why they’re never getting out of depression.
If someone only wants emotionless relationships with people they only interact with for their own benefit, and never giving a care in turn, that’s legitimate, as long as they don’t lie about their intentions. But that might also explain why this Hannah at the OP cannot find a good partner.
If your partner has a mental illness/disorder, then being in a relationship with them can absolutely involve emotional labor.
We all have mental disorders. Fuckin everybody does. Especially those considered normal. If you have no problems fitting into this corpo hellscape, you’re nuts.
The irony about depression and entropy is that is actually a pretty good analogy. Depresson, just like entropy, will only cool down more and more over time. You quite directly have to put in effort to solve depresson just like ‘something’ has to be countering entropy for difference to remain. Entropy untreated leaves you with nothing to work with much like depresson.
It works well as a metaphor, which is why people might be fooled to think there might be a direct parallelism without understanding the insurmountable differences between both (depression may be very hard to get out of if you’re in a downwards spiral, but definitely possible, while entropy is literally an inevitability of the Universe, as far as our understanding of physics goes) which is why I compared it to the popular appropriation of emotional labor, which notices the poetic similarity but is unable to understand the actual differences between both.
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Mind to explain how?
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I certainly dislike people who have neat little boxes to put other people in. I know it’s a human thing, still think it’s detrimental.
It’s not a human thing. Humans are natural empathizers. It’s a capitalism “you’re your job and your khakis” thing.
Theres some tendency towards tribalism that is probably a human thing though right? Wasn’t that the main social unit for humans through prehistory?
Social units existing in the first place requires some level of empathy. Tribalism is just selective empathy, not the absence of it.
Yes. Humans definitely aren’t altruistic or empathetic, as a whole.
That’s because we’re just animals. I would say it this way: humans are not instinctually altruistic but are capable of being rational.
Which isn’t any better and may actually be worse: we can be rational, but we can also rationalize our instincts.
Yeah communism famously doesn’t allow for punishing people for intrinsic traits
Empathy is a learned behaviour.
Lol, humans are inherently tribalistic.
Capitalism is actually normal human behavior. There’s a reason it has to be regulated.
Tribalism is based on empathy towards other tribe members. Capitalism, ironically, goes against this: tribal bonds take a back seat to economic interest.
Humans are, in fact naturally empathetic. It’s why we pack-bond with anything with a name.
They’re naturally empathetic to their tribe, but not to others. Tribalism isn’t a good thing.
Tribalism is the root of the entire GOP platform of hate. Racism, anti-LGBT, etc. are all because humans are tribalistic.
Tribalism is bad, but the tribe existing at all is empathy in action. Once the tribe is there, it’s just a matter of expanding it.
It’s not a matter of expanding it. Humans developed to have tribes of 2-300 people, and as a species we haven’t done well past that. Look how society started turning to shit once we could communicate globally with millions of people.
We didn’t learn to love and accept everyone, we just formed echo chambers (tribes) and turned the dial up on the hate.
What you’re looking for is something like globalism, which goes against human nature.
Dunbar’s number is 150, I believe. But that’s the limit for ““real”” people, with names and addresses and birthdays. The magic is, however, they don’t need to all be real: a nation is a tribe, and nations can hold millions. You just need a few real people that you take as a stand in for all the others, and then keep doing it untill it encompasses the whole of humanity.
I say “just”, it’s not like it’s that easy, but it’s doable.
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Capitalism really couldn’t happen to this degree until industrialism became a thing.
I mean, all you have to do is look at all of recorded human history to see that we’re not an altruistic or compassionate species. A person might be altruistic or compassionate, but people aren’t. If people were, communism would actually work.
Regardless, tribalism isn’t a good thing because you end up with ‘that persons skin color is different from mine and that’s bad.’
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Communism works for small communities, like 2-300 people (which incidentally is the size of the tribes we developed to be part of).
And while altruistim and compassion have existed, they’re by no means traits in the majority of humans. Humans are selfish, greedy animals. Some of us might realize this and work to be better, but that means we’re fighting our natural tendencies.
I thought the last one was just conservatives making stuff up until I joined Lemmy.
Don’t get me wrong, the woman in the tweet is awful, especially the part about hating men who dare to have emotions, but I’m responding purely to the last thing on this list.
A lot of Lemmy users seem to think all they need to do to be immune to misogyny is to be leftist. It’s just been getting real tiring for me browsing this site seeing men be praised for things they at the same time put women down for. Not that men shouldn’t be praised for these things, but the double standard here is immense.
The major one I’ve noticed is putting down women for having a preference on height or even dick size, but men are allowed to only want big boobs or petite women because it’s “a natural expression of human sexuality.”
There’s also that I’ve seen several times men on here complaining when women are given safe spaces and resources specifically for them, like job fairs and such, and the comments being filled with how it should have been open to men as well because not doing so is sexist, meanwhile being totally ok and even ecstatic when a resource is opened specifically for men.Like, I’m trans. I’ve lived on the other side of the coin. I’m glad men around here have a safe space to display their frustrations and discuss men’s issues that in most places you’d be crucified for even mentioning. I just wish this could be a safe space for both genders, not just the one who holds the majority. There are a lot of times I feel straight up unwelcome on Lemmy simply because I’m a women.
My 2c on this, I wish people would understand that a lot of women have similar struggles, same for men, and having spaces for those experiences to be shared with people who understand is really important.
I think the issue is it feels pretty othering when I’ve had experiences similar and feel like I’m not allowed to share them (without a lot of angry stares) because I’m not the correct gender.
I know there have been cases of women’s spaces being taken less seriously, but I don’t remember any specifics. Do you have any examples that come to mind?
It’d take me ages to find the post, but a while back, there was a post about a job fair for women getting overrun by a tidal wave of men. The comments were filled with people trying to justify it, such as saying that it was illegal and sexist to host a job fair for women only, and people even the slightest bit upset that a job fair for women was overrun by men abusing the legal loophole that they technically couldn’t be kicked out got down voted way to the bottom of the thread.
I found the post https://lemmy.world/post/6206801 and here https://kbin.social/m/technology@lemmy.world/t/508848 Yeah I guess you have to see it firsthand. I’ve heard tons of comments like “women just aren’t built for STEM” etc which these events are trying to show is wrong. It is probably a little unfair to the individual but good for society as a whole when talented women don’t see a field is 90% men and decide it’s not worth dealing with the boys club.
I do wanna point out, the most upvoted comments seem to have the same sentiment of this actually is important and a good thing to have for women. Definitely quite a few with a high score that say the opposite though…
That is the post I was talking about. I did forget about the few higher pro-woman comments. I guess I tend to remember the bad more than the good.
Still unpleasant how many people around here are completely ok with stuff like that though, but I suppose it’s worth focusing on the positive.“women just aren’t built for STEM”
Comments like that are utter trash. Only an incel believes in that BS. It’s as if they never knew that one of, if not the first programmers, was Ada Lovelace.
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Basically what I’m saying is some things need to cater to specific crowds to function. We don’t need to get rid of the law, we need to adapt it (tbh, I don’t think we should have to do that either, I think people should respect when something’s not made for them on their own, but that won’t happen.)
I’m not just talking about things like this job fair. I’m talking about shelters for abused people as well. I might just be imagining it because it was so long ago that I read it, but I remember cases of shelters for abused men getting shut down for discriminating against women, which is ridiculous because those shelters are gender divided for a reason.
In this case, these kind of job fairs are to help more women get into male dominated fields, which is really tough because of the amount of abuse and discrimination they get in those fields.Men and women in a general sense experience different kinds of societal issues and need to be allowed to have safe spaces away from each other.
As a male, while I do not support men breaking into that job fair, I can understand their frustrations.
There should be some limited spaces for people of one gender to stay without the other, but that should be things like shelters and other places for people in mentally vulnerable position caused by people of opposite gender, and it shouldn’t grow into a gendered separation.
Jobs should be available for everyone, and if females get less access to jobs, job market needs to be regulated to remove sources of said discrimination, without creating bigger discrimination (like outright blocking other gender’s access to same jobs).
General-purpose gendered spaces (like quite a few barbershops for males or certain feminist cafes for females) only breed more resentment and stereotypical thinking about the other gender, as there is no one to correct them and no counterexamples to be seen. Besides, gender separation makes places that can be important for a person closed from them for immutable reasons, which is a clear case of discrimination and is not cool.
I agree with you for the most part, but in practice it’s way more difficult to regulate out discrimination if you don’t first have enough women (or other minorities in other cases) working in the field to function as a support network. Even if you get the job at that point, if you’re not made to feel welcome there there’s a solid chance you’re not gonna keep that job, because nobody wants to deal with that every day.
I don’t like the idea of restricting men from the same opportunity, but there isn’t much other solution until the playing field is made more even.
As far as your last paragraph goes, pretty much in full agreement. When I say men and women need safe spaces away from each other, I don’t mean they should be secluded from each other, which is what places like that tend to cause. I mean things like support groups, friends they can vent to, and even online forums and such specifically for them. There still needs to be plenty of exposure in our daily lives though to the issues of men, women, and minorities.
My issues with Lemmy primarily come from the fact that the site is massively male dominated, which means it’s become largely an echo chamber. People here as a result have become much more sensitive to men’s issues, which is a good thing, but the tradeoff is that there’s virtually nobody stepping in for women’s issues, sometimes even going as far as to deny the issue even exists. I know the rest of the internet is often the other way around, but I really wish we could have at least one space somewhere on the internet where both men and women are allowed to say things like “this makes me uncomfortable” or “this makes me feel ashamed of my body” and be taken seriously.
I was really hoping Lemmy would be that space when I first signed up, and it was really disappointing to realize what it was actually like. Luckily, there are some instances out there that are more balanced on that, but I’d rather not have to turtle up in one of them.
Thanks for your points. While I stand by my position of regulation over reverse discrimination, I understand where you’re coming from here.
I’d like to point one thing out, however, and it stems directly from the intersection of abovementioned issue and the one you raise about Lemmy.
The place is certainly male-dominated, and yes, this can make local ethos more male-centric and masculist. Also as you rightfully mentioned, Lemmy is one of the few avenues where such thought can be propagated efficiently and not be overwhelmed in the oblivion by feminist/conservative voices.
We are, generally, in the minority, yet when we get to concentrate our voices somewhere - like Lemmy - and dominate small part of the Internet you belong to, this naturally makes you uncomfortable.
That happens because you’d like to have an equal footing everywhere, and don’t want to be discriminated against even in a small alcove that is this place.
We don’t want that, either. We don’t want to be discriminated against somewhere just because males historically dominate in other place. We don’t want to lose access to our dreams and jobs (in the abovementioned case) because previous generation has screwed it up the other way around. Many of us, however, are perfectly happy to promote a healthier workplace ethic, including towards women, and popularize females working in male-domimated spaces. This way is sometimes more rocky, but it is fair and it allows to even things out without having to radicalize and tilt scales towards the domination of the other gender.
Should “male job fairs” appear for female-dominated jobs, I’ll also stand against it, despite the knee-jerk to give males preference at taking new places to balance it out quicker and promote the new culture.
With that being said, I welcome you here on Lemmy and hope more feminist and generally female voices will join in. I’m also happy to promote feminist initiatives in this place (without forgetting masculist ones), so hit me up if something crosses your mind.
That wasn’t a loophole, what that event was doing was open and naked gender discrimination and their ban on men was legally unenforceable. The law was on their side. What women should do in retaliation is bum rush those men’s clubs where all the power decisions are made by the top 1% of men. Fun fact the dean of my uni’s computer science dept was a woman, and decades later it still is. THEY have a crucial role in recruiting women students, it begins at the start of the pipeline.
The major one I’ve noticed is putting down women for having a preference on height or even dick size, but men are allowed to only want big boobs or petite women because it’s “a natural expression of human sexuality.”
That’s not the way I remember it. I remember being told that men having or expressing physical preferences in women was a terrible thing to do, being called a sexist, shallow pig, etc. This has been a female talking point basically my entire life. Then I remember being rejected for being 5’7". You know how we live in a world with 5 websites, each one is full of pictures of the other 4? I think I saw a Facebook post of a Tweet on Reddit that said [woman]: Grey sweatpants are for men with DICK, not men with peepee. [man]: But if I said tight jeans are for girls with ass, not long backs, I’d be the asshole.
I find that level of sheer hypocrisy is pretty effective at eroding my capacity for empathy.
Want another example? How about this cycle:
- How dare men rely on only their romantic partners for emotional support. Men should support each other goddess dammit!
- Men create spaces to gather and share activities. – If activity is not socially acceptable, I’ll use the example of tabletop gaming in the 80’s and 90’s: “EWW look at the nerds and their pathetic nerd shit! Get lost, losers!” – If activity is or becomes socially acceptable, and especially if it starts building money or prestige, I’ll use the example of video games in the 2000’s and 2010’s: “This environment isn’t suitable for women! I demand you change it to accommodate my needs and tastes.”
- Why the fuck don’t men make and keep friendships with other men? I just don’t fucking get it.
And for some reason they expect me to automatically give a damn when the Republicans take their rights away?
Women are very vocal about not being on my side. So guess what? I’m not on theirs. Gasp.
If you feel unwelcome on Lemmy just for being a woman, as far as I’m concerned you can go somewhere else.
Your concerns for a lot of your life experiences are completely valid, but when you make the jump from “a lot of women have been assholes to me” to “women are assholes”, you fall into the same pitfall people are criticizing in this thread. There are a lot of women who are assholes. There are a lot of men who are assholes. Let’s criticize those behaviors, and make society a little bit better insofar we’re able to, rather than join their ranks.
Based response.
Jesus Christ, dude. Learn some empathy
Everyone is shallow, that’s not exclusive to any gender. Some people are shitty, others can have hard-line views due to experienced trauma. Doesn’t mean you should generalize, men and women are not monoliths. Just trying to understand the lived experience of the other side goes a long way.
I find that level of sheer hypocrisy is pretty effective at eroding my capacity for empathy.
Jesus Christ, dude. Learn some reading comprehension.
Judging by how the votes in this thread are going, my lived experience isn’t worth considering, so I now have no intention of considering anyone else’s. Fuck empathy. It’s not worth trying.
Oh grow up, what are you? An angsty teenager?
Life isn’t that hard.
You’re talking about the most shallow, vapid women out there. The women i’ve met have generally never talked like that. So no, you don’t get a pass to hate on women just because you saw some FB memes that hurt your fee fees…
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They didn’t say those weren’t true women, this is not how no true scotsman works
I’d ask who hurt you but evidently it’s just yourself
And for some reason they expect me to automatically give a damn when the Republicans take their rights away?
I give a damn about Republican douchebaggery because I’m not like those kinds of people, I don’t want to be a monster like them. I want to be able to look in the mirror and see someone who’s better than that. How women react will never affect me acting on my morals, they don’t control me.
the woman in the tweet is awful, especially the part about hating men who dare to have emotions,
What tweet are you reading?
I hope it’s not rude that I checked your profile and saw your explanation. I can see how I might have misinterpreted that. The way I interpreted the “sensitive men” and “emotional labor” part was as reinforcing the toxic masculine stereotype that men are supposed to just “man up” and not show emotion. Unfortunately, that’s an aspect of toxic masculinity upheld by women just as much as men.
The major one I’ve noticed is putting down women for having a preference on height or even dick size, but men are allowed to only want big boobs or petite women because it’s “a natural expression of human sexuality.”
I see men being constantly shamed and catching blowback for those preferences. I mean we can’t hope to succeed in shaming women into wanting short men or poor men, etc. but shouldn’t the same rule apply to men? More insane is that wanting a tall man is more “legitimate” than wanting big boobs or athletic build in women. The rules are constantly altered to justify all women’s preferences and demonize men’s.
Also as a man you can be banned from Reddit not for saying “no trans woman” but just for saying “I want a cis woman”. Feminist subreddits will go for your head, too. (Don’t get me wrong if one of my kids is dating a trans person I will support them totally also.) I’ve gotten the vibe that you risk your account here over that, too.
You are correct that in most environments, it is the other way around. In most places, women wanting tall men is considered normal and acceptable, but men having any preference at all is not. My point was not about how things are in society as a whole, but how things are on the larger Lemmy instances. However, even that seems to have rapidly changed since I made this comment. There was a thread about men’s issues I saw recently that didn’t devolve into “this is why women are awful” and actually stayed on topic, and that was really nice to see.
What I was frustrated about was that there was no space where both men’s and women’s preferences were respected, and also not resorting to body shaming when people do not meet those preferences. Lemmy is primarily dominated by men, which naturally makes it easier to talk about men’s issues without being shamed for it, but it did lead, for a while, to women’s issues not only being overlooked, but also often being intentionally ignored or outright shamed, mostly because men could not understand these issues they’d never experienced, so they didn’t feel as real (which is largely the same reason women often have trouble respecting men’s issues.)
I’m guessing it has to do with Lemmy’s population finally growing again and new perspectives being thrown into the mix, but I’ve noticed a lot more empathy about gendered issues lately, which is nice to see.
As far as whether you risk your account for only wanting cis women, probably depends heavily on the instance. A shocking amount of the time people use preference as a cover for bigotry, so I wouldn’t be surprised if some mods are heavy on the trigger finger when it comes to that. Not that there’s not legit reasons to not want to date trans women. We can’t provide biological children and a large portion of us have no desire to “fully” transition, which are both reasonable reasons to not want to be with a trans woman (and of course that’s not an exhaustive list of every valid reason.) It’s just often people who say that mean they don’t view trans women as actual women and don’t want to date them because they’re “not gay.”
You are correct that in most environments, it is the other way around. In most places, women wanting tall men is considered normal and acceptable, but men having any preference at all is not. My point was not about how things are in society as a whole, but how things are on the larger Lemmy instances. However, even that seems to have rapidly changed since I made this comment. There was a thread about men’s issues I saw recently that didn’t devolve into “this is why women are awful” and actually stayed on topic, and that was really nice to see.
I used to be a MRA until Trump happened and the gender loyalism just got too much to handle. I can’t put up with gender jingoism (“my gender, right or wrong”) nonsense from either side. I had to part ways for good when they started saying the 19th should be revoked. “This is why wo/men are awful” is basically saying one sucks at vetting people without actually saying one sucks at vetting people.
As for women wanting tall men, or men not wanting fat women for that matter, the ramifications of said preference leaves a lot of men and women out in the cold, but what can you do? Freedom to choose who you want to be intimate with is sancrosanct. Depressing (I got a 12 year old son aging into this shithole situation) but can’t be fixed because it isn’t biology, it goes way deeper than that, it’s spiritual. What can and must be fixed, though, is the shaming: shit like “Fat shaming month” or women walking up in bars using measuring tape to see a guy’s actual height. The “fat women / short men kill yourselves” shit that sometimes flourishes unchecked in social media before admins step in and nix it long after it has hit a ton of eyeballs.
There is a prevalent culture of shaming someone for what they can’t help or can’t easily help and then acting like they are the problem when you cause them to have insecurities related to that. Full scale industrialized cultural-level gaslighting without apology. We need to end that… but how? It’s like it’s also part of our spiritual zeitgeist. I mean some of us are aware and awake, but overall? Might as well say everyone stop being human. But it’s also spiritually embedded for those who are awake to refuse to stop fighting the good fight. That windmill will see no peace from my lance.
As far as whether you risk your account for only wanting cis women, probably depends heavily on the instance. A shocking amount of the time people use preference as a cover for bigotry, so I wouldn’t be surprised if some mods are heavy on the trigger finger when it comes to that. Not that there’s not legit reasons to not want to date trans women. We can’t provide biological children and a large portion of us have no desire to “fully” transition, which are both reasonable reasons to not want to be with a trans woman (and of course that’s not an exhaustive list of every valid reason.) It’s just often people who say that mean they don’t view trans women as actual women and don’t want to date them because they’re “not gay.”
I have a special pile of beef for the whole “you’re dating a trans woman hahahaha you suck” mentality. Mods and admins being trigger happy af about trans issues is an affront, but so is that. I’m buying plenty of lances for tilting against that windmill, too. Break one, I come back with another…
The dating pool for young men is literally
-OF models
-“Sensitive” girls you have to perform constant emotional labor for
-Narcissistic (if not sociopathic) insta models
-Emotionally abusive manipulators
-Spambots
Add gold diggers to the list
Gold diggers are not in the pool for non-rich
Easy, just go bi and date other women. You still have the option for men.
Edit also it’s unfair to say what she’s saying anyways. I almost feel like your dating pool options or choices are more a reflection of you than other people. Or idk, maybe some people get unlucky.
Yeah she’s gonna have a rough time
