In May, a court rejected Lai’s bid to halt his security trial on grounds that it was being heard by judges picked by Hong Kong’s leader. That is a departure from the common law tradition China promised to preserve for 50 years after the former British colony returned to China in 1997.
Don’t tell me that British laws are actually that corrupt. No way, right?
You are misunderstanding what it means. The article specifically about this explains it better:
When Hong Kong returned to China in 1997, it was promised that trials by jury, previously practiced in the former British colony, would be maintained under the city’s constitution. But in a departure from the city’s common law tradition, the security law allows no-jury trials for national security cases.
It’s absolutely not. There used to be right to trial by jury in all cases in Hong Kong before China took it away, which is what this article is about. So already it’s clearly not the “world standard.” Another example, United States routinely holds jury trials with classified national defense information and goes to great lengths to create a system to do this, since there is a constitutional guarantee to a trial by Jury. Process explained in this article: https://www.politico.com/news/2023/06/14/trump-trial-classified-documents-public-00102023 in regards to the trump case, which is a great example involving highly sensitive national security information. And that involves a jury too. I’d say you could just search online yourself and find out how wrong you are, but i doubt you’re arguing in good faith. So as you can see, the standard in China is not the same thing as the standard “the world over.” This was a right forcibly removed from the people of Hong Kong by China.
Take your authoritarian apologist made up nonsense elsewhere.
LOL, unironically accusing me of authoritarian apologia because I am for the reintegration of a former British colonial holding with the country the British stole it from.
You’re comparing to a country that has FISA courts? That extrajudicially assassinates foreign nationals? That operates one of the most notorious extrajudicial agencies in living memory?
Fisa courts are a process to obtain search warrants. They don’t try suspects. If a warrant resulted in information that led to charges, they would be indicted by a grand jury and that would then lead to a public jury trial. You’re also changing the subject because you’re clearly wrong here and don’t want to admit it, or more likely just arguing in bad faith. You said it was the “world standard” to strip someone of a right to trial by jury if it involved national security information. And that’s obviously untrue. Hong Kong (until China changed it) and the USA are two such places where it is not the standard. Some quick internet searching would show you many countries in the world protect a right to trial by jury, even in cases involving national security information. Which I really doubt is the case here, more likely some pretext by the Chinese government so they can continue to persecute any political opposition to their one party authoritarian rule. Just because China decided to not grant their citizens a trial by jury right does not mean it is the standard in the whole world. Don’t conflate the two.
I understand you’re saying China’s administration of Hong Kong should follow UK practices?
Diplock courts were criminal courts in Northern Ireland for non-jury trial of specified serious crimes (“scheduled offences”). They were introduced by the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1973 and used for serious and terrorism-related cases during the Troubles.
You’re saying that what the UK did in 1973 in was wrong? So China should copy that wrong and withhold a right to trial by jury from their citizens to persecute political prisoners as well? Weird take but alright, if that’s your viewpoint. Enjoy authoritarianism.
Hong Kong’s common law tradition is entirely a colonialist imposition. Worse, common law doesn’t apply to modern national security regimes. The US is a common law nation, but it has secret courts, enemy combatants designations, secret evidence, secret charges, and the federal court system has significant departures.
The idea that a national security proceeding in China should be constrained by thousand-year old precedent set in England is not just ridiculous it is a particular kind of white imperialist ridiculous.
Do you think that having the political leader hand pick a panel judges to try someone and do away with jury trial is a good idea then? Particularly when the defendant has a history of annoying said political leader? You don’t think it might be rather open to abuse?
Abuse. Abuse. You are worried about abuse? How about the occupation of Hong Kong, the attempt to extend occupation, and then, upon determining that the occupation could not be extended, doing everything in your power to create strife, division, conditions for counter-revolution and secessionary movements, and maintaining as much political and economic influence over the territory as possible?
Do you think that might be open to abuse? How would you solve that problem? What sorts of solutions exist in the imperial world for resolving this sort of problem?
What you don’t seem to grasp is that One Country, Two Systems entails One National Defense. Collaboration with Western imperialists who have subjugated China for centuries is going to be handled by the One Country, not the Two Systems. Unlike the imperial holdings of the West, however, Hong Kong is actually democratically integrated into China. Ask Puerto Rico, Guam, the Virgin Islands, etc how democracy is working out for them?
You also aren’t actually analyzing the bureaucratic workings of China’s legal system and aren’t steeped in their history, traditions, and precedent. You are reading a Western spin on what’s actually happening. You can’t read Chinese, so you can’t read Chinese law. You can’t actually engage with Chinese events at the same level of detail and analysis that you can of English, American, Canadian, and Australian events. So, forgive me if I don’t find your arguments compelling, since they amount to accusing Xi of being an autocrat in what is demonstrably a democratic institution operating a rules-based bureaucratic system that has a decade-long 95% national approval while simultaneously operating the most complex multi-ethnic country in the history of the world including autonomous regions wherein ethnic nations experience a greater degree of cultural self-expression and self-governance than anything the West has ever produced. Clearly, if China worked the way you think it does Xi would be calling all the shots and people would be discontent and the governing of 1.4 billion people of 57 ethnicities would be coming apart at the seams. Instead we see that it is France, UK, and USA that is falling apart dealing with far fewer people and with far less ethnic diversity and with far less ethnic autonomy. Something in your analysis is fundamentally flawed.
Back to your point about abuse, though, should you be worried about abuse of power in China? Is that where your energy should be going? Does China operate 600 military bases globally? Does China operate extrajudicial torture chambers all over the world? Does China launch new wars of aggression every few years? Does China deploy chemical and nuclear weapons that continue to kill thousands of babies the world over for decades? Does China suppress language and culture of people living in its borders in a continuously unbroken 600-year genocide?
As far as I can tell, all systems have corruption, all systems have abuse of power - it’s the essence of governing systems that they are this way. What we should be worried about is actual abuses, not potential abuses. Worrying about potential abuses allows you to focus on China while the USA kills millions, tortures with impunity, trains terrorists and death squads, and sows death and destruction everywhere it goes. Focus on the problem. China’s not the problem.
You need to work on your reading comprehension. The UK government does not ‘handpick’ judges for cases and under Hong among common law the Chinese government wasn’t meant to either.
I’m honestly intrigued by the tankie strategy of pretending to be dumber than a fence post.
I cannot see it working to convince anyone, so is the idea just to waste people’s time? The strategy effectively draws more attention to the issues China and Russia tend to try to suppress - if it wasn’t for tankies, this thread would have been completely uninformative in regards to Chinese human rights abuses. So it seems counterproductive.
Another theory is that a lot of them were hired to be Trump supporters online until recently, and that they’re just not very good at being Chinese/Russian apologists just yet. It’s a learning experience - we all have our rough days at work.
It’s interesting stuff. In either case it’s somehow nice to have someone ask the dumb questions, making the facts come out in the open for anyone whose just too afraid to ask. So I’ve change my mind - you’re not wasting your time. :)
There is a third category. A lot of these people are legitimately edgy teenagers who haven’t studied any history or political science outside of a very tiny socialist (and I use that term lightly, these are mostly anti-west reactionaries) information bubble and simply do not understand the enormity of their own ignorance. It becomes incredibly obvious once you’ve spent a bit of time engaging with them.
Do you have any intuition where these kids come from? Are they mostly Americans?
I guess I can see how dissatisfaction with the state of democracy, welfare, and media in the US could lead to the logical fallacy that things must be better in Russia and China. I just struggle to understand how the degree of sheer stupidity they often project can be genuine.
At least the Trump supporters came across as genuine lunatics. These people just appear to be eating crayons.
There’s basically a pool of judges available to sit in any particular court, and the court’s admin staff picks them based on a rota system, workload and availability.
The ‘common law’ was instituted by Britain prior to Hong Kong’s hand-back. It contained measures to bolster the independence of the judiciary under the ‘one country, two systems’ agreement. China over-rode those conventions for this trial, handpicking judges.
Don’t tell me that British laws are actually that corrupt. No way, right?
You are misunderstanding what it means. The article specifically about this explains it better:
Which is also the standard the world over
It’s absolutely not. There used to be right to trial by jury in all cases in Hong Kong before China took it away, which is what this article is about. So already it’s clearly not the “world standard.” Another example, United States routinely holds jury trials with classified national defense information and goes to great lengths to create a system to do this, since there is a constitutional guarantee to a trial by Jury. Process explained in this article: https://www.politico.com/news/2023/06/14/trump-trial-classified-documents-public-00102023 in regards to the trump case, which is a great example involving highly sensitive national security information. And that involves a jury too. I’d say you could just search online yourself and find out how wrong you are, but i doubt you’re arguing in good faith. So as you can see, the standard in China is not the same thing as the standard “the world over.” This was a right forcibly removed from the people of Hong Kong by China.
Take your authoritarian apologist made up nonsense elsewhere.
LOL, unironically accusing me of authoritarian apologia because I am for the reintegration of a former British colonial holding with the country the British stole it from.
You’re comparing to a country that has FISA courts? That extrajudicially assassinates foreign nationals? That operates one of the most notorious extrajudicial agencies in living memory?
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/29/us/politics/pentagon-guantanamo-secret-courtroom.html
https://www.npr.org/2013/06/07/189430580/the-history-behind-americas-most-secretive-court
https://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/1991/us/
https://www.aclu.org/documents/frequently-asked-questions-about-targeting-killing
Not even just foreign nationals, remember when Obama drone-killed that 16 year old American?
Fisa courts are a process to obtain search warrants. They don’t try suspects. If a warrant resulted in information that led to charges, they would be indicted by a grand jury and that would then lead to a public jury trial. You’re also changing the subject because you’re clearly wrong here and don’t want to admit it, or more likely just arguing in bad faith. You said it was the “world standard” to strip someone of a right to trial by jury if it involved national security information. And that’s obviously untrue. Hong Kong (until China changed it) and the USA are two such places where it is not the standard. Some quick internet searching would show you many countries in the world protect a right to trial by jury, even in cases involving national security information. Which I really doubt is the case here, more likely some pretext by the Chinese government so they can continue to persecute any political opposition to their one party authoritarian rule. Just because China decided to not grant their citizens a trial by jury right does not mean it is the standard in the whole world. Don’t conflate the two.
I understand you’re saying China’s administration of Hong Kong should follow UK practices?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplock_court
You’re saying that what the UK did in 1973 in was wrong? So China should copy that wrong and withhold a right to trial by jury from their citizens to persecute political prisoners as well? Weird take but alright, if that’s your viewpoint. Enjoy authoritarianism.
They didn’t just do it in 1973, they do it to this day and it seemed to be used regularly until 2007.
It’s a departure from the common law tradition. Furthermore common law is a completely different concept from British laws.
I’m not sure I understand your question.
You’re replying to a tankie.
Just the usual knewjerk reaction to defend China.
Yeah, I noticed the instance only after I had already responded. Oh well, that solves the mystery of the questionable reading comprehension.
Hong Kong’s common law tradition is entirely a colonialist imposition. Worse, common law doesn’t apply to modern national security regimes. The US is a common law nation, but it has secret courts, enemy combatants designations, secret evidence, secret charges, and the federal court system has significant departures.
The idea that a national security proceeding in China should be constrained by thousand-year old precedent set in England is not just ridiculous it is a particular kind of white imperialist ridiculous.
Do you think that having the political leader hand pick a panel judges to try someone and do away with jury trial is a good idea then? Particularly when the defendant has a history of annoying said political leader? You don’t think it might be rather open to abuse?
Abuse. Abuse. You are worried about abuse? How about the occupation of Hong Kong, the attempt to extend occupation, and then, upon determining that the occupation could not be extended, doing everything in your power to create strife, division, conditions for counter-revolution and secessionary movements, and maintaining as much political and economic influence over the territory as possible?
Do you think that might be open to abuse? How would you solve that problem? What sorts of solutions exist in the imperial world for resolving this sort of problem?
What you don’t seem to grasp is that One Country, Two Systems entails One National Defense. Collaboration with Western imperialists who have subjugated China for centuries is going to be handled by the One Country, not the Two Systems. Unlike the imperial holdings of the West, however, Hong Kong is actually democratically integrated into China. Ask Puerto Rico, Guam, the Virgin Islands, etc how democracy is working out for them?
You also aren’t actually analyzing the bureaucratic workings of China’s legal system and aren’t steeped in their history, traditions, and precedent. You are reading a Western spin on what’s actually happening. You can’t read Chinese, so you can’t read Chinese law. You can’t actually engage with Chinese events at the same level of detail and analysis that you can of English, American, Canadian, and Australian events. So, forgive me if I don’t find your arguments compelling, since they amount to accusing Xi of being an autocrat in what is demonstrably a democratic institution operating a rules-based bureaucratic system that has a decade-long 95% national approval while simultaneously operating the most complex multi-ethnic country in the history of the world including autonomous regions wherein ethnic nations experience a greater degree of cultural self-expression and self-governance than anything the West has ever produced. Clearly, if China worked the way you think it does Xi would be calling all the shots and people would be discontent and the governing of 1.4 billion people of 57 ethnicities would be coming apart at the seams. Instead we see that it is France, UK, and USA that is falling apart dealing with far fewer people and with far less ethnic diversity and with far less ethnic autonomy. Something in your analysis is fundamentally flawed.
Back to your point about abuse, though, should you be worried about abuse of power in China? Is that where your energy should be going? Does China operate 600 military bases globally? Does China operate extrajudicial torture chambers all over the world? Does China launch new wars of aggression every few years? Does China deploy chemical and nuclear weapons that continue to kill thousands of babies the world over for decades? Does China suppress language and culture of people living in its borders in a continuously unbroken 600-year genocide?
As far as I can tell, all systems have corruption, all systems have abuse of power - it’s the essence of governing systems that they are this way. What we should be worried about is actual abuses, not potential abuses. Worrying about potential abuses allows you to focus on China while the USA kills millions, tortures with impunity, trains terrorists and death squads, and sows death and destruction everywhere it goes. Focus on the problem. China’s not the problem.
Hong Kong’s leader handpicked judges because the UK does it as well. This sounds very corrupt, but maybe it sounds normal for the Brits.
You need to work on your reading comprehension. The UK government does not ‘handpick’ judges for cases and under Hong among common law the Chinese government wasn’t meant to either.
While it’s possible he’s actually that stupid, he’s not posting in good faith. Don’t waste your time. :)
I’m not primarily posting for him. I’m posting for people who might otherwise be mislead
Fair!
I’m honestly intrigued by the tankie strategy of pretending to be dumber than a fence post.
I cannot see it working to convince anyone, so is the idea just to waste people’s time? The strategy effectively draws more attention to the issues China and Russia tend to try to suppress - if it wasn’t for tankies, this thread would have been completely uninformative in regards to Chinese human rights abuses. So it seems counterproductive.
Another theory is that a lot of them were hired to be Trump supporters online until recently, and that they’re just not very good at being Chinese/Russian apologists just yet. It’s a learning experience - we all have our rough days at work.
It’s interesting stuff. In either case it’s somehow nice to have someone ask the dumb questions, making the facts come out in the open for anyone whose just too afraid to ask. So I’ve change my mind - you’re not wasting your time. :)
There is a third category. A lot of these people are legitimately edgy teenagers who haven’t studied any history or political science outside of a very tiny socialist (and I use that term lightly, these are mostly anti-west reactionaries) information bubble and simply do not understand the enormity of their own ignorance. It becomes incredibly obvious once you’ve spent a bit of time engaging with them.
Do you have any intuition where these kids come from? Are they mostly Americans?
I guess I can see how dissatisfaction with the state of democracy, welfare, and media in the US could lead to the logical fallacy that things must be better in Russia and China. I just struggle to understand how the degree of sheer stupidity they often project can be genuine.
At least the Trump supporters came across as genuine lunatics. These people just appear to be eating crayons.
Hmmm, perhaps he’s actually a HK pro-democracy activist posing a tanky to make them look dumb and spotlight China’s problematic policies.
… this is an unlikely hypothesis :)
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So how are they picked?
There’s basically a pool of judges available to sit in any particular court, and the court’s admin staff picks them based on a rota system, workload and availability.
I think you need to reread that.
The ‘common law’ was instituted by Britain prior to Hong Kong’s hand-back. It contained measures to bolster the independence of the judiciary under the ‘one country, two systems’ agreement. China over-rode those conventions for this trial, handpicking judges.