And as you read through you will notice a heavy bias towards the assumption he did exist…but again, without proof. It’s kind of silly the lie he was real is so prevalent.
Each attempt to prove his existence relied on very loose reasoning. The closest they have ever come breaks down to one actual historical figure who wasn’t a Christian mentioning some thieves who believed in Jesus numerous decades after Jesus supposedly died - which for a long time was proof enough…somehow.
At this point scholars have admitted they will never have actual proof that he existed - that proof is “ultimately unattainable”. And much like you noted with “political impact” they have moved the goal posts to the impact on society the concept of Jesus had as their proof. So… yeah, definitely not proven.
What did you expect? We’re talking about one guy who might have lived over 2000 years ago. You’re not going to find his birth certificate and social security number.
The best anyone can do is assign a probability to his existence. And reading the article you yourself linked to, that probability seems to be pretty high.
The best anyone can do is assign a probability to his existence
For a person that is considered an actual god, we should expect more than “probable” existence. I think pointing out the lack of evidence for a supposed god is perfectly acceptable.
You’re missing the point or you’re being deliberately obtuse. Either way, nobody’s trying to prove that Jesus Christ existed in this thread (at least, nobody that is arguing in good faith - no pun intended). We’re talking about the real guy that MOST LIKELY really existed but, putting aside his supposed divine heritage, would have been basically a regular guy back then.
A regular guy who created three different movements in under 3 years, convinced multiple people to abandon their families and income for life with no power beyond words, who managed to somehow someway have the entire legal system in place not work properly, and was able to convince Pilot to not do the sensible thing which would be wipe out his followers.
Could you pull this off? With no money and influence could you go to say Mississippi, convince 12 men to abandon their wives/children/income, lead them on a suicide run, somehow manipulate the justice system to not give you a regular trial, yet shield all of your followers for decades after your death, and inspire two separate movements after you are dead…in under 3 years.
If a regular guy has this level of charisma I would be pretty impressed.
This happens regularly… They are called cults today… Their members also believe their Messiah is a messenger from (or literally is) god… And they get much more than 12.
Jim Jones started his church in 1954 and had enough followers to buy his own church building by 1955.
I don’t know the exact timeline on it but his faith healing garbage was a conscious effort to engender faith in his teachings and has been written about as being effective in less than a year.
Sorry. Did he die 6 months after he started his church? I didn’t ask if he had enough money to buy a building, tax free at the absurd cost of owning a building in the 50s. Really people making minimum wage could afford a house back then.
Worth mentioning that he ran the church for another 24 years and now it is gone. The historical Jesus claim is that he started the church, got people to join, six months later they were willing to do a suicide attack, and 20 centuries later they are still around.
You are welcome to back off on this. You are not going to find a single time in history, of the thousands of documented religions, where this happened.
Founder, suicidal cult, dead, and still around all in the span of half a year.
Occum’s razor. Every other religion that had any success had a founder who spent multiple decades keep it going building up the institutions needed. So what is more likely that Christianity is the one odd one out of thousands or it is the same? James was running a mystery cult centered around a fictional heavenly figure.
How Jesus Became God covers that process. Early Christianity was very complicated and divergent. Some groups thought Jesus was just a guy, others that he was just a guy who was raised to divinity, and still others that he was divine from the start. And then even among those who thought he had some sort of divinity, not all of them agreed with the trinity idea. And then Gnositcs come along and have a whole different cosmology about everything.
The Council of Nicaea didn’t come up with anything on its own. It was an official stamp on what set of existing ideas were considered orthodox or not.
We have two sources for Spartacus: Plutarch of Chaeronea and Appian of Alexandria. Both were written a century after he died. The two accounts mostly agree, but in the middle of the story they go completely different directions and then meet up again for the ending.
Spartacus is generally regarded as existing. We don’t know which account had it right, and it’s possible neither of them are. We will probably never know.
Point is, if you’re not a ruler, then historical evidence of your existence tends to be thin. Jesus likely existed, and we have better evidence for him than Spartacus.
Might not be intentional lie. Take for example how we today call government “Uncle Sam”. It’s not hard to imagine made up person back in the day used for similar purposes so records survived but there’s no physical evidence. We do it all the time, witches, santa claus, boogeyman, etc.
Note how the article uses the word “scholars” as opposed to scientists. Scientists would simply state that there is no actual evidence about the existence of this guy so this is all speculation.
Then you have to do the same for a huge number of other historical figures. You end up with history being a huge blank beyond people who were rulers. That’s not useful, and not necessary.
What historical figures do you have in mind? The difference between a historical and a mythical person is the evidence available for their existence. History (the scientific kind) has a pretty clear idea which is which.
I’ll copy my writeup from elsewhere in the thread.
We have two sources for Spartacus: Plutarch of Chaeronea and Appian of Alexandria. Both were written a century after he died. The two accounts mostly agree, but in the middle of the story they go completely different directions and then meet up again for the ending.
Spartacus is generally regarded as existing. We don’t know which account had it right, and it’s possible neither of them are. We will probably never know.
Point is, if you’re not a ruler, then historical evidence of your existence tends to be thin. Jesus likely existed, and we have better evidence for him than Spartacus.
When did I say that? I said there’s no definitive proof. That’s not denying the possibility that the guy actually existed. But as you said, the evidence is rather thin.
We can say he was from Thrace, that he was captured as a slave and fought as a gladiator in Capua, he led a slave revolt, and ran the Roman Army ragged all over the Italian peninsula. Including armies led by Marcus Crassus and Julius Caesar.
We can say that Jesus was from Nazareth, he started a weird little apocalyptic group within Judaism when he was around 30 years old, was baptized by a guy who started a parallel apocalyptic group (there were a lot of these guys running around Israel at the time), and he was crucified by the Romans. He almost certainly wasn’t trying to start a whole new religion separate from Judaism; that came later, likely with Paul.
And that’s it, that’s the claim. Nobody is asking you to believe in the superstitious aspects, just the completely mundane claim that Christianity likely has a singular individual that inspired the movement.
James Cameron did a national geographic documentary proving the guy existed. They found his ostuary. Which fits the time period. It was some astronomically absurd chance that it wasn’t him. Since everyone in the tomb had the family names of all of his relatives. Something like it was a 1 in 10 million chance that it wasn’t the nuclear family’s buried remains.
That is hilariously untrue, have you any idea how big that news would be? They don’t even know if Arimathea was a real place, we certainly don’t know about Jesus family - none of them are mentioned outside the limited references in the Bible
Ok so if you don’t believe in the Bible what is your source of information that he existed?
You are making the claim it is on you to defend it. If I say unicorns exist I have to provide evidence for it not demand that other people defend every single aspect of their life.
So what is the source for your claim for Jesus given that you have thrown out already pretty much all the evidence we have?
Real talk, he hasn’t been proven to exist. Not even a little.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus
And as you read through you will notice a heavy bias towards the assumption he did exist…but again, without proof. It’s kind of silly the lie he was real is so prevalent.
Each attempt to prove his existence relied on very loose reasoning. The closest they have ever come breaks down to one actual historical figure who wasn’t a Christian mentioning some thieves who believed in Jesus numerous decades after Jesus supposedly died - which for a long time was proof enough…somehow.
At this point scholars have admitted they will never have actual proof that he existed - that proof is “ultimately unattainable”. And much like you noted with “political impact” they have moved the goal posts to the impact on society the concept of Jesus had as their proof. So… yeah, definitely not proven.
What did you expect? We’re talking about one guy who might have lived over 2000 years ago. You’re not going to find his birth certificate and social security number.
The best anyone can do is assign a probability to his existence. And reading the article you yourself linked to, that probability seems to be pretty high.
For a person that is considered an actual god, we should expect more than “probable” existence. I think pointing out the lack of evidence for a supposed god is perfectly acceptable.
You’re missing the point or you’re being deliberately obtuse. Either way, nobody’s trying to prove that Jesus Christ existed in this thread (at least, nobody that is arguing in good faith - no pun intended). We’re talking about the real guy that MOST LIKELY really existed but, putting aside his supposed divine heritage, would have been basically a regular guy back then.
A regular guy who created three different movements in under 3 years, convinced multiple people to abandon their families and income for life with no power beyond words, who managed to somehow someway have the entire legal system in place not work properly, and was able to convince Pilot to not do the sensible thing which would be wipe out his followers.
Could you pull this off? With no money and influence could you go to say Mississippi, convince 12 men to abandon their wives/children/income, lead them on a suicide run, somehow manipulate the justice system to not give you a regular trial, yet shield all of your followers for decades after your death, and inspire two separate movements after you are dead…in under 3 years.
If a regular guy has this level of charisma I would be pretty impressed.
This happens regularly… They are called cults today… Their members also believe their Messiah is a messenger from (or literally is) god… And they get much more than 12.
In six months?
Jim Jones started his church in 1954 and had enough followers to buy his own church building by 1955.
I don’t know the exact timeline on it but his faith healing garbage was a conscious effort to engender faith in his teachings and has been written about as being effective in less than a year.
Sorry. Did he die 6 months after he started his church? I didn’t ask if he had enough money to buy a building, tax free at the absurd cost of owning a building in the 50s. Really people making minimum wage could afford a house back then.
Worth mentioning that he ran the church for another 24 years and now it is gone. The historical Jesus claim is that he started the church, got people to join, six months later they were willing to do a suicide attack, and 20 centuries later they are still around.
You are welcome to back off on this. You are not going to find a single time in history, of the thousands of documented religions, where this happened.
Founder, suicidal cult, dead, and still around all in the span of half a year.
Occum’s razor. Every other religion that had any success had a founder who spent multiple decades keep it going building up the institutions needed. So what is more likely that Christianity is the one odd one out of thousands or it is the same? James was running a mystery cult centered around a fictional heavenly figure.
That came later, first council of nicaea was where the thing with holy trinity was made.
How Jesus Became God covers that process. Early Christianity was very complicated and divergent. Some groups thought Jesus was just a guy, others that he was just a guy who was raised to divinity, and still others that he was divine from the start. And then even among those who thought he had some sort of divinity, not all of them agreed with the trinity idea. And then Gnositcs come along and have a whole different cosmology about everything.
The Council of Nicaea didn’t come up with anything on its own. It was an official stamp on what set of existing ideas were considered orthodox or not.
Literally everything about Jesus came later, though.
I expect Paul to be able to say literally anything about the guy. Which he can’t seem to do. It is called the Silence of Paul problem.
We have two sources for Spartacus: Plutarch of Chaeronea and Appian of Alexandria. Both were written a century after he died. The two accounts mostly agree, but in the middle of the story they go completely different directions and then meet up again for the ending.
Spartacus is generally regarded as existing. We don’t know which account had it right, and it’s possible neither of them are. We will probably never know.
Point is, if you’re not a ruler, then historical evidence of your existence tends to be thin. Jesus likely existed, and we have better evidence for him than Spartacus.
Very well. Show me the contemporary evidence of Jesus existing
Might not be intentional lie. Take for example how we today call government “Uncle Sam”. It’s not hard to imagine made up person back in the day used for similar purposes so records survived but there’s no physical evidence. We do it all the time, witches, santa claus, boogeyman, etc.
Note how the article uses the word “scholars” as opposed to scientists. Scientists would simply state that there is no actual evidence about the existence of this guy so this is all speculation.
Then you have to do the same for a huge number of other historical figures. You end up with history being a huge blank beyond people who were rulers. That’s not useful, and not necessary.
What historical figures do you have in mind? The difference between a historical and a mythical person is the evidence available for their existence. History (the scientific kind) has a pretty clear idea which is which.
I’ll copy my writeup from elsewhere in the thread.
We have two sources for Spartacus: Plutarch of Chaeronea and Appian of Alexandria. Both were written a century after he died. The two accounts mostly agree, but in the middle of the story they go completely different directions and then meet up again for the ending.
Spartacus is generally regarded as existing. We don’t know which account had it right, and it’s possible neither of them are. We will probably never know.
Point is, if you’re not a ruler, then historical evidence of your existence tends to be thin. Jesus likely existed, and we have better evidence for him than Spartacus.
That’s the whole point. We assume the guy existed but there’s no proof.
So you’re going to deny the existence of Spartacus? Really?
When did I say that? I said there’s no definitive proof. That’s not denying the possibility that the guy actually existed. But as you said, the evidence is rather thin.
We can say he was from Thrace, that he was captured as a slave and fought as a gladiator in Capua, he led a slave revolt, and ran the Roman Army ragged all over the Italian peninsula. Including armies led by Marcus Crassus and Julius Caesar.
We can say that Jesus was from Nazareth, he started a weird little apocalyptic group within Judaism when he was around 30 years old, was baptized by a guy who started a parallel apocalyptic group (there were a lot of these guys running around Israel at the time), and he was crucified by the Romans. He almost certainly wasn’t trying to start a whole new religion separate from Judaism; that came later, likely with Paul.
And that’s it, that’s the claim. Nobody is asking you to believe in the superstitious aspects, just the completely mundane claim that Christianity likely has a singular individual that inspired the movement.
James Cameron did a national geographic documentary proving the guy existed. They found his ostuary. Which fits the time period. It was some astronomically absurd chance that it wasn’t him. Since everyone in the tomb had the family names of all of his relatives. Something like it was a 1 in 10 million chance that it wasn’t the nuclear family’s buried remains.
That is hilariously untrue, have you any idea how big that news would be? They don’t even know if Arimathea was a real place, we certainly don’t know about Jesus family - none of them are mentioned outside the limited references in the Bible
The Lost Tomb of Jesus https://g.co/kgs/A1gqTdn
The very first sentence in Wikipedia describes it as pseudoarchaeological docudrama. Got to love it.
Why does your sky zombie hate you so much he gives you such bad evidence?
I don’t believe in the Bible lol
But the historical figure existed. It’s not an amalgamation of fantasy. He was likely nothing like his imagery in pop culture.
Ok so if you don’t believe in the Bible what is your source of information that he existed?
Do you believe Alexander the Great existed? Or Cleopatra? Or Socrates?
You are making the claim it is on you to defend it. If I say unicorns exist I have to provide evidence for it not demand that other people defend every single aspect of their life.
So what is the source for your claim for Jesus given that you have thrown out already pretty much all the evidence we have?