It’s pretty bold to say that there’s no evidence for him.
For starters, the claim that he existed is rather unextraordinary. That he was the messiah might be extraordinary, but just that a dude with that name who did some of the same things isn’t too remarkable. This means that we don’t need a ton of strong evidence. Compounded with the fact that he was (if he existed) poor, and therefore it’s not expected that he’d leave much evidence, we need hardly anything to say the man existed.
Since there seems to be a consensus by experts that he existed, and since neither of us are experts (probably, I don’t actually know about you), you need to either present a reason to be skeptical of those experts or present evidence contradicting their claim.
I’m not able to filter through everything Josephus and Tacitus wrote, interpret it in the intended context, and judge it’s validity. Thus I need to trust other people’s findings.
If you could show that these experts are unreliable (perhaps they’re religiously motivated, though I think secular historians agree), then we could start from scratch and the burden of proof would be on people claiming the man existed.
There is no evidence of him that exists and we have. It’s possible that it will be found one day but given how much people have looked I have my doubts.
For starters, the claim that he existed is rather unextraordinary. That he was the messiah might be extraordinary, but just that a dude with that name who did some of the same things isn’t too remarkable.
As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread even the reduced claim doesn’t match the data we have on early Christianity.
Compounded with the fact that he was (if he existed) poor, and therefore it’s not expected that he’d leave much evidence, we need hardly anything to say the man existed.
That really isn’t my problem. You can’t tell me to accept no evidence because it is to hard to find any.
Since there seems to be a consensus by experts
Not interested in consensus.
you need to either present a reason to be skeptical of those experts or present evidence contradicting their claim.
Sure! The person who was most close to the events didn’t seem to know anything about the events. The stories we have contradict each other and show clear borrowings. They also show the type of borrowings we would expect. For example the idea that God has a former human buddy working with him in heaven was a heresy that the Pharisees were trying to kill (book of Enoch). Go reread Paul and see how he describes Jesus going to heaven and now working with God.
I’m not able to filter through everything Josephus and Tacitus wrote, interpret it in the intended context, and judge it’s validity. Thus I need to trust other people’s findings.
Neither men were alive when the supposed events happened and every book we have of them comes through Christian scribes. Even those scholars you are referencing mostly reject the big passage of Josphius.
If you could show that these experts are unreliable (perhaps they’re religiously motivated, though I think secular historians agree
Nope, no desire. I am not a mind reader. Nor do I think it is appropriate to attack someone for disagreeing with me. I attack ideas not people.
then we could start from scratch and the burden of proof would be on people claiming the man existed.
Nope. The burden of proof does not follow by majority rule it follows on the person making the claim. If it did every atheist would have to give up now because the majority of the experts on God(s) in human history have been believers and it would be on us to disprove God.
There’s no surviving records of his (or anyone named Jeshua or any variant there of,) ever having existed.
In fact if any such record were to be found, it would almost certainly be fraudulent.
There are records of people saying he existed well after his reputed death… but those records are pretty universally from individuals with extensive motive to lie- what with being cult leaders and all that.
Even if there were records of someone with his name existing, matching them to jesus-of-the-bible would prove almost impossible- the best would be a “well maybe it was him” kinda deal.
It would be like finding some guy named “John” had been incarcerated in Louisiana and insisting he was John Coffey and here to save us all.
There probably is, the irony is just that it’s a document all churches will fight tooth and nail against recognizing as partially authoritative over their own records.
In general, I’ve found that the best evidence for a historical Jesus having existed is in the history of the “other versions of Jesus” Paul makes mention of in 2 Cor 11:4. A city where only decades later they deposed appointees from Rome in a schism.
The assumption that if a historical Jesus existed that the surviving tradition of that individual would be the one that succeeded against its rivals centuries later is grossly irresponsible, and yet a common scenario unexplored to avoid upsetting modern day believers in that version of the history.
The odds are much, much higher that the most accurate picture of a historical Jesus would be found among the competition. Particularly given the available evidence that the church’s monetary fundraising practices were at odds with the earliest versions of Jesus.
What’s more likely to survive the filter of the Roman empire?
A version of Jesus against dynastic rule and religious fundraising, or a version pro-fundraising and pro-dynastic monarchy?
Which version would be more likely to have the temple or Rome wanting to execute them?
Does no one think it odd Peter, the founder of the modern church, denies him three times around the time Jesus is brought to trial around three times, at least one of which Peter is allegedly seen firsthand being let by the guards back to where the trial was taking place?
Or that Paul, who never met him and was known to be actively persecuting Jesus’s followers, shows up to areas he can’t persecute in telling people he’s one of them and to ignore other versions of Jesus?
People argue back and forth about a particular version of history when it comes to the Bible that’s both less interesting and less likely than other options for historical events and people that just may have been less attractive to people in power when editorial choices are being made for the current collection and editions of them.
There probably is, the irony is just that it’s a document all churches will fight tooth and nail against recognizing as partially authoritative over their own records.
No. There probably isn’t. Romans were only meticulous in keeping records of their citizens. He was not a citizen, was if not uncomfortable still working class, but probably poor.
The Jewish authorities were far more interested in stamping out a heretical cult.
That’s the thing. There is no surviving records. What existed is pretty much all destroyed. Every account comes decades after the fact- and can only say that Christian’s existed and that they believed christ existed. There is no evidence that anyone named jeshua existed- and even if it did, it would be impossible to verify he was that particular jeshua.
If I’m wrong, drop the proof. But don’t make assumptions on hope. The good news (pun intended,) is that the lack of evidence goes both ways. Which is why I’m not saying he didn’t exist and only that there is no evidence of existence.
The inability to execute without Roman approval had nothing to do with citizenship.
The rights to capital punishment were taken away over a period in which Jesus was killed.
But the accounts of Jesus’s death are extremely unusual given the other reports of messianic upstarts in Josephus who were killed by Roman forces without trial, immediately upon gathering, and where followers were killed too.
The allegation of it being at the Sanhedrin’s urging would be extremely unusual if true. And Roman reluctance even more so.
One might even look to alternate charges that were publishable by death under Jewish law but accepted in Roman society for the kind of charge that might lead to such an outcome.
Such as the charge of homosexuality. So if there were reports of kissing or feeding a close male disciple food at dinner right around when Jesus is arrested, we might want to entertain the possibility a historical Jesus was killed by his own people for allegations related to that, which wouldn’t have been an easy decision for a Roman authority given the rumours even the Emperor at the time was engaging in some behaviors.
Another might be rejection of intelligent design in favor of Roman philosophy, like Leucretius’s “seeds of things” scattered randomly where only what survived reproduced, and the seed that fell by the wayside of the path did not. Those are all Leucretius’s words, and yet it sounds very similar to a saying by Jesus which is offered up a secret explanation for its public utterance in canon. Whereas in the tradition of the document I think with greater connection to the historical origin, they believed that parable was about indivisible points which make up all things and were the originating cause of the universe (their words).
That document says things like:
Jesus said, “If the flesh came into being because of spirit, that is a marvel, but if spirit came into being because of the body, that is a marvel of marvels.”
In fact, the saying immediately before the parable in this work was:
The person is like a wise fisherman who cast his net into the sea and drew it up from the sea full of little fish. Among them the wise fisherman discovered a fine large fish. He threw all the little fish back into the sea, and easily chose the large fish. Anyone here with two good ears had better listen!
So a tradition of Jesus that was engaged with the ideas in Leucretius’s De Rerum Natura - the only extant work from antiquity to explicitly describe survival of the fittest - might also be a tradition that was deemed by the Sanhedrin to be ‘heretical’ but not one so easily dismissed by Roman authority in a time Leucretius’s book was still quite popular across Rome.
It would be incredibly unusual for a made up tradition to have also made up a schism where their devout Jewish messiah figure was paraphrasing the brightest Roman mind on what was wildly transgressive at the time yet since proved to have been true. Or to have added in intimate moments with his supposed betrayer and public denials by his supposed successor.
But these are exactly the kind of details we might expect from a version of events contending with living witnesses of actual events that need to be addressed and spun in a different way.
It’s a bit like Perseus and Medusa. The only way to spot what was really going on is in the reflection left behind by its opposition in the writings of the victors. But that reflection can actually reveal quite a lot.
You’re confusing the ability to do a thing… with the recording of said thing.
Pilate might have made a note of it in his personal records, but it was never sent back to rome. Being a citizen entitled one to a full trial which comes with records of that trial.
As a non-citizen he would have never constituted more than a footnote.
As for the Sanhedrin…. They had a long history of having upstarts knifed by “loyal” mercenaries. Makes one wonder, right?
Of course this changes nothing- there are no records contemporaneous to jesus that survive today indicating the jesus-of-the-bible actually existed.
Again, there are leftover parts that very likely do remain, it’s just their recognition is obstructed by the faithful.
For example, saying 81 in the Gospel of Thomas seems like it’s pretty relevant to Tiberius’s inheritance and then abandonment of the throne without passing power to another. And given the reinterpretation decades later where it is combined with saying 1 as appears to be referred to by Paul in 1 Cor 4:8, a letter with several overlaps with the work and a number of which are clearly referred to as present in Corinth pre-Paul.
That document wouldn’t have survived to today if the church had its way, and modern analysis over the decades since has been mired by the church’s influence. But luckily it was buried in a jar for nearly two millennia and publicly accessible.
Socrates didn’t write anything. The oldest surviving fragment of Plato dates to the oldest fragment of the Gospel of Thomas and was found in the same place.
And yet I’d imagine you don’t doubt that Socrates really existed, do you? In fact, we have a much more ancient full version of Thomas than we do any of Plato’s works.
The question of whether content dating to a given person’s life survived is a very different question from if actual physical media from that person’s life survived.
I would agree with the statement no contemporary evidence exists for either Socrates or Plato as well. Though it does seem we have fragments of papyrus dating to the time of Plato…. And we have plenty of first hand accounts of Plato’s existence as well as people responding with criticism etc. not to mention, they’re from a time 300+ years before Jesus was purported to have been born.
You will note this conversation isn’t about them, however. I don’t worship them, either. And to be blunt, there are no works attributed directly to Jesus. The gospels all purport to be written by their namesakes, though that’s mostly rejected. The non canonical gospels like Thomas are well after Mark. And mark itself was not written by mark, and was written around or a couple years after Peter probably died. Keep in mind mark was supposed to be a translator for Peter.
Oh and the gospel of Thomas was written sometime between 60 and 250- kind of depends on who you ask. Even at the earliest, it would have been 30 years after the cruxifiction, give or take.
The point being, they’re complete hearsay about what happened. Second- and third- hand accounts at best, all pushed by people who have a reason to lie about it. Jesus himself has no writings that are directly attributed to him (or, “attributed”… early Christian’s have a problem with faking it for “authority”) and the earliest accounts of his life are 30 or so years after he died, and the only things they agree on are that the Roman’s killed him and John the Baptist baptized him.
Well said but small point. The first report of him being baptized by John the Baptist wasn’t until 50 years later. Paul never mentions it, the Gospel of Thomas never mentions it, it wasn’t until the Mark Gospel.
It’s pretty bold to say that there’s no evidence for him.
For starters, the claim that he existed is rather unextraordinary. That he was the messiah might be extraordinary, but just that a dude with that name who did some of the same things isn’t too remarkable. This means that we don’t need a ton of strong evidence. Compounded with the fact that he was (if he existed) poor, and therefore it’s not expected that he’d leave much evidence, we need hardly anything to say the man existed.
Since there seems to be a consensus by experts that he existed, and since neither of us are experts (probably, I don’t actually know about you), you need to either present a reason to be skeptical of those experts or present evidence contradicting their claim.
I’m not able to filter through everything Josephus and Tacitus wrote, interpret it in the intended context, and judge it’s validity. Thus I need to trust other people’s findings.
If you could show that these experts are unreliable (perhaps they’re religiously motivated, though I think secular historians agree), then we could start from scratch and the burden of proof would be on people claiming the man existed.
There is no evidence of him that exists and we have. It’s possible that it will be found one day but given how much people have looked I have my doubts.
As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread even the reduced claim doesn’t match the data we have on early Christianity.
That really isn’t my problem. You can’t tell me to accept no evidence because it is to hard to find any.
Not interested in consensus.
Sure! The person who was most close to the events didn’t seem to know anything about the events. The stories we have contradict each other and show clear borrowings. They also show the type of borrowings we would expect. For example the idea that God has a former human buddy working with him in heaven was a heresy that the Pharisees were trying to kill (book of Enoch). Go reread Paul and see how he describes Jesus going to heaven and now working with God.
Neither men were alive when the supposed events happened and every book we have of them comes through Christian scribes. Even those scholars you are referencing mostly reject the big passage of Josphius.
Nope, no desire. I am not a mind reader. Nor do I think it is appropriate to attack someone for disagreeing with me. I attack ideas not people.
Nope. The burden of proof does not follow by majority rule it follows on the person making the claim. If it did every atheist would have to give up now because the majority of the experts on God(s) in human history have been believers and it would be on us to disprove God.
There’s no surviving records of his (or anyone named Jeshua or any variant there of,) ever having existed.
In fact if any such record were to be found, it would almost certainly be fraudulent.
There are records of people saying he existed well after his reputed death… but those records are pretty universally from individuals with extensive motive to lie- what with being cult leaders and all that.
Even if there were records of someone with his name existing, matching them to jesus-of-the-bible would prove almost impossible- the best would be a “well maybe it was him” kinda deal.
It would be like finding some guy named “John” had been incarcerated in Louisiana and insisting he was John Coffey and here to save us all.
There probably is, the irony is just that it’s a document all churches will fight tooth and nail against recognizing as partially authoritative over their own records.
In general, I’ve found that the best evidence for a historical Jesus having existed is in the history of the “other versions of Jesus” Paul makes mention of in 2 Cor 11:4. A city where only decades later they deposed appointees from Rome in a schism.
The assumption that if a historical Jesus existed that the surviving tradition of that individual would be the one that succeeded against its rivals centuries later is grossly irresponsible, and yet a common scenario unexplored to avoid upsetting modern day believers in that version of the history.
The odds are much, much higher that the most accurate picture of a historical Jesus would be found among the competition. Particularly given the available evidence that the church’s monetary fundraising practices were at odds with the earliest versions of Jesus.
What’s more likely to survive the filter of the Roman empire?
A version of Jesus against dynastic rule and religious fundraising, or a version pro-fundraising and pro-dynastic monarchy?
Which version would be more likely to have the temple or Rome wanting to execute them?
Does no one think it odd Peter, the founder of the modern church, denies him three times around the time Jesus is brought to trial around three times, at least one of which Peter is allegedly seen firsthand being let by the guards back to where the trial was taking place?
Or that Paul, who never met him and was known to be actively persecuting Jesus’s followers, shows up to areas he can’t persecute in telling people he’s one of them and to ignore other versions of Jesus?
People argue back and forth about a particular version of history when it comes to the Bible that’s both less interesting and less likely than other options for historical events and people that just may have been less attractive to people in power when editorial choices are being made for the current collection and editions of them.
No. There probably isn’t. Romans were only meticulous in keeping records of their citizens. He was not a citizen, was if not uncomfortable still working class, but probably poor.
The Jewish authorities were far more interested in stamping out a heretical cult.
That’s the thing. There is no surviving records. What existed is pretty much all destroyed. Every account comes decades after the fact- and can only say that Christian’s existed and that they believed christ existed. There is no evidence that anyone named jeshua existed- and even if it did, it would be impossible to verify he was that particular jeshua.
If I’m wrong, drop the proof. But don’t make assumptions on hope. The good news (pun intended,) is that the lack of evidence goes both ways. Which is why I’m not saying he didn’t exist and only that there is no evidence of existence.
Make sense?
The inability to execute without Roman approval had nothing to do with citizenship.
The rights to capital punishment were taken away over a period in which Jesus was killed.
But the accounts of Jesus’s death are extremely unusual given the other reports of messianic upstarts in Josephus who were killed by Roman forces without trial, immediately upon gathering, and where followers were killed too.
The allegation of it being at the Sanhedrin’s urging would be extremely unusual if true. And Roman reluctance even more so.
One might even look to alternate charges that were publishable by death under Jewish law but accepted in Roman society for the kind of charge that might lead to such an outcome.
Such as the charge of homosexuality. So if there were reports of kissing or feeding a close male disciple food at dinner right around when Jesus is arrested, we might want to entertain the possibility a historical Jesus was killed by his own people for allegations related to that, which wouldn’t have been an easy decision for a Roman authority given the rumours even the Emperor at the time was engaging in some behaviors.
Another might be rejection of intelligent design in favor of Roman philosophy, like Leucretius’s “seeds of things” scattered randomly where only what survived reproduced, and the seed that fell by the wayside of the path did not. Those are all Leucretius’s words, and yet it sounds very similar to a saying by Jesus which is offered up a secret explanation for its public utterance in canon. Whereas in the tradition of the document I think with greater connection to the historical origin, they believed that parable was about indivisible points which make up all things and were the originating cause of the universe (their words).
That document says things like:
In fact, the saying immediately before the parable in this work was:
So a tradition of Jesus that was engaged with the ideas in Leucretius’s De Rerum Natura - the only extant work from antiquity to explicitly describe survival of the fittest - might also be a tradition that was deemed by the Sanhedrin to be ‘heretical’ but not one so easily dismissed by Roman authority in a time Leucretius’s book was still quite popular across Rome.
It would be incredibly unusual for a made up tradition to have also made up a schism where their devout Jewish messiah figure was paraphrasing the brightest Roman mind on what was wildly transgressive at the time yet since proved to have been true. Or to have added in intimate moments with his supposed betrayer and public denials by his supposed successor.
But these are exactly the kind of details we might expect from a version of events contending with living witnesses of actual events that need to be addressed and spun in a different way.
It’s a bit like Perseus and Medusa. The only way to spot what was really going on is in the reflection left behind by its opposition in the writings of the victors. But that reflection can actually reveal quite a lot.
You’re confusing the ability to do a thing… with the recording of said thing. Pilate might have made a note of it in his personal records, but it was never sent back to rome. Being a citizen entitled one to a full trial which comes with records of that trial.
As a non-citizen he would have never constituted more than a footnote.
As for the Sanhedrin…. They had a long history of having upstarts knifed by “loyal” mercenaries. Makes one wonder, right?
Of course this changes nothing- there are no records contemporaneous to jesus that survive today indicating the jesus-of-the-bible actually existed.
Again, there are leftover parts that very likely do remain, it’s just their recognition is obstructed by the faithful.
For example, saying 81 in the Gospel of Thomas seems like it’s pretty relevant to Tiberius’s inheritance and then abandonment of the throne without passing power to another. And given the reinterpretation decades later where it is combined with saying 1 as appears to be referred to by Paul in 1 Cor 4:8, a letter with several overlaps with the work and a number of which are clearly referred to as present in Corinth pre-Paul.
That document wouldn’t have survived to today if the church had its way, and modern analysis over the decades since has been mired by the church’s influence. But luckily it was buried in a jar for nearly two millennia and publicly accessible.
Socrates didn’t write anything. The oldest surviving fragment of Plato dates to the oldest fragment of the Gospel of Thomas and was found in the same place.
And yet I’d imagine you don’t doubt that Socrates really existed, do you? In fact, we have a much more ancient full version of Thomas than we do any of Plato’s works.
The question of whether content dating to a given person’s life survived is a very different question from if actual physical media from that person’s life survived.
Nice whataboutism.
I would agree with the statement no contemporary evidence exists for either Socrates or Plato as well. Though it does seem we have fragments of papyrus dating to the time of Plato…. And we have plenty of first hand accounts of Plato’s existence as well as people responding with criticism etc. not to mention, they’re from a time 300+ years before Jesus was purported to have been born.
You will note this conversation isn’t about them, however. I don’t worship them, either. And to be blunt, there are no works attributed directly to Jesus. The gospels all purport to be written by their namesakes, though that’s mostly rejected. The non canonical gospels like Thomas are well after Mark. And mark itself was not written by mark, and was written around or a couple years after Peter probably died. Keep in mind mark was supposed to be a translator for Peter.
Oh and the gospel of Thomas was written sometime between 60 and 250- kind of depends on who you ask. Even at the earliest, it would have been 30 years after the cruxifiction, give or take.
The point being, they’re complete hearsay about what happened. Second- and third- hand accounts at best, all pushed by people who have a reason to lie about it. Jesus himself has no writings that are directly attributed to him (or, “attributed”… early Christian’s have a problem with faking it for “authority”) and the earliest accounts of his life are 30 or so years after he died, and the only things they agree on are that the Roman’s killed him and John the Baptist baptized him.
Well said but small point. The first report of him being baptized by John the Baptist wasn’t until 50 years later. Paul never mentions it, the Gospel of Thomas never mentions it, it wasn’t until the Mark Gospel.