The United States last week secretly shipped a new long-range missile system to Ukraine, and Ukrainian forces immediately used the weapons to attack a Russian military airfield in Crimea last Wednesday and Russian troops in the country’s southeast overnight on Tuesday, according to a senior U.S. official.
The United States previously supplied Ukraine with a version of the Army Tactical Missile Systems — known as ATACMS — armed with wide-spreading cluster munitions that can travel 100 miles.
But Ukraine has long coveted the system’s longer-range version, with a range of about 190 miles. That can reach deeper into occupied Ukraine, including Crimea, a hub of Russian air and ground forces, and supply nodes for Moscow’s forces in the country’s southeast.
Overnight Tuesday, Ukraine used the longer-range missiles to strike Russian troops in the port city of Berdiansk on the Sea of Azov, the senior U.S. official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss operational matters.
In a major policy shift, President Biden secretly approved the decision to send more than 100 of the longer-range missiles in mid-February
That is a big deal! I believe they were given 20 or so last year, and they were able to wreck a dozen of Russia’s best attack helicopters with them, as well as several other, less flashy, targets. And that was with the shorter range variant, the article is saying they received the longer range variant this time!
Additional longer-range missiles were also included in the $60.8 billion of aid for Ukraine
More to come!
Big deal? The Cuban missile crisis was a big deal.
It wasn’t about nukes it was about missiles. In that those missiles could carry nukes was another matter
Imagine if 2 things could be true!
If only…
At the time it was reported that there not any warheads on the missles.
‘Big deal’ is kind of an understatement for a stand-off between 2 nuclear behemoths, that at multiple points during the crisis could have ended the entire world.
And knowing what we know now… only a few sane/scared individuals may have prevented annihilation.
Ukraine getting the capability to strike at any target within the occupied territories is a pretty big deal though. If this forces the Germans into delivering Taurus it becomes an even bigger deal.
Here’s to hoping they arrive in time for the Ukranians to honor may 9th with fireworks.
If this forces the Germans into delivering Taurus it becomes an even bigger deal.
Exactly.And the UK will or are supplying, and German politics won’t have an argument not to send the Taurus anymore.
The argument they have is that Taurus is programmed using proprietary Bundeswehr Software and cannot be programmed without it. So only Bundeswehr personell can do it. As the software is part of the larger systems of the Bundeswehr so they cannot just provide it to Ukraine.
And this would mean German soldiers in Ukraine and that was the line Olaf does not want to cross.
Even though rumors and later confirmation by the Germans indicate this was true for storm shadow and scalp as well… and these missiles are used by the Ukranians… So probably France and the UK have a skeleton crew in theatre to program their ordenance for the Ukranians.
Ah yes , I forgot that bit. These men on the ground are usually called instructors & maintenance crew. Germany ( Rheinmetall) and other facilititators are building factories with some self defense systems in U.A. They are called the construction crew, I reckon. Political correctness, just use the “correct” names.^^.
‘Big deal’ is kind of an understatement for a stand-off between 2 nuclear behemoths, that at multiple points during the crisis could have ended the entire world.
What has changed?
Ukraine getting the capability to strike at any target within the occupied territories is a pretty big deal though.
Some would/will call that a provocation.
Here’s to hoping they arrive in time for the Ukranians to honor may 9th with fireworks.
They are already there.
A provocation? to hit Russian targets within occupied Ukranian territory?
Look, I know the Russians expected to be hailed as saviors and welcomed by the Ukranians. But they have awoken from that fairytale some time ago.
So now calling foul when your military assets start blowing up even further behind the front lines would be something I expect them to whine over… But what are they going to do?
I hope that Putin gets to see his precious bridge to crumble.
The why doesn’t matter. Remember we are talking about long range weapons to Ukraine being taken seriously. The reason is that as with what the Russians did putting missiles in Cuba, NATO is putting long range weapons in Ukraine, which can reach Russia. Russia wcan call that a provocation if it is or not. Will they attack NATO because of that? I wouldn’t think they are that stupid. But, then they did invade Ukraine.
Ukraine has been hitting deep into Russia proper all year. If Russia is so offended that hitting someone gets you hit back, they are free to leave Ukraine.
Mostly with drones.
And you have a good point since now Ukraine has established the idea of striking inside Russia, the geopolitics are less important.
Which is the point I was wanting to get to. Wars evolve through time. What was an important consideration at one point, in this case blowback, is not necessarily as important now. So many times I see people not realizing this fact.
The US giving them the missiles or the fact that they can penetrate deeper into their invaded homeland? Because the active invasion they are fighting off sounds more like provocation than either.
But,those misses can also reach across Russian borders into Russian cities. Which is clearly the reason for concern.
Using the long range NATO ordenance in Russia proper after agreeing to not do that is the quickest way to not getting any more.
Ukraine is quickly developing their own capabilities to strike into Russia, as they can then use the NATO ordenance in ukraine.
This worry is nonsense.
Here I was not worrying about it, but rather discussing the geopolitical ramifications. Silly me.
So…you think Ukraine is suddenly going to start killing Russian civilians?
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Haha military industrial complex go brrrr
^(This is meant as a tongue-in-cheek appreciation of the USA actually doing some good with said military industrial complex, please don’t get mad)
If anything, Russia’s embarrassingly bad military supply chain being exposed in this war reinforces the long held US policy to find every excuse to spend on continued military production.
Our manufacturers have stayed active as a result of the ongoing military industrial complex. Our ever rotating stockpile of military goods have kept our equipment modern and in good position, and our manufacturers ready to mass produce if we find ourselves in need.
I have been highly critical of wasteful military spending. But I have to admit that recent events have highlighted the value in our approach. It’s still extremely wasteful, and our old military supply that gets phased out and sold off / gifted to police and foreign vassels do a world of damage. But if your goal is to be as ready for war as possible, it makes a lot of sense.
I have been highly critical of wasteful military spending.
Oh boy, Until Russia attacked Ukraine, I thought we were past the times where it was necessary too. Unfortunately I was wrong, but what’s worse, is that when looking back, it’s actually pretty clear that Putin was like this, with Crimea and other situations that easily added up to Putin being a war monger.
But what’s even worse than this is that I see some similar tendencies from China. NATO really needs to stick together now, and Europe is beginning to step up to our responsibilities more now.
It’s Lemmy, someone’s always mad. Don’t worry, they’re not your crowd.
What makes me really mad is this new drug called ecstasy, it makes me mad!
Studio audience: How mad does it make ya?
This implies one of two things. Either these were sitting across the boarder, waiting for approval, or they were already there in a warehouse labeled “inexpensive potatoes” waiting for approval. It must have been so hard to wait if they were already in-country, but congress had to get off its collective elephant ass to approve the money for them.
Yet more evidence we could have done FDR’s move. Leave them next to the border and forget about them. When Ukraine shows up with them you just shrug and go, “ah that’s where those ended up!”
Clearly not so secretly…
“secretly shipped” They got there and they got used. And we now read about it. Sounds like it worked?
Yeah, pretty sure Russia knows all about it now that they’ve been hit 200km behind the front line.
This is certainly good news, and I don’t intend to detract from it.
That being said, my opinion as an American is that the kind of missiles we need to be sending to Ukraine are the nuclear kind. The Russian government has said that they will use nuclear weapons in the event that the existence of their country is threatened. Fine, I understand that. Ukraine needs to have the same leverage. The existence of their country as they know it is being threatened; it would certainly turn the tables for them to say “Yes, we have nuclear weapons, and we’ll only use them if our continued existence is being threatened. By the way, you’re threatening it; you should really stop.”
Hard disagree. Nuclear weapons are for deterring certain military actions, not ongoing ones. Giving Ukraine nukes just adds to the likely hood of a nuclear war. Currently the West is trying to show that countries without
bikesnukes can still be protected if we all work together to protect a country’s sovereigntyukraine is out of bikes too?!
They willingly gave them all up with their nukes
And I think NATO is already deterring Russia from using nukes in Ukraine but claiming that it considers any nuclear attack there as an attack on Europe.
But yes, deterring a conventional conflict needs nuclear weapons before the conflict starts.
This will not work. Giving two countries who are actively at war nuclear weapons will result in them firing their nuclear weapons. That’s not the result you want.
“Yes, we have nuclear weapons, and we’ll only use them if our continued existence is being threatened. By the way, you’re threatening it; you should really stop.”
This threat is really weak, because the second sentence undermines the first. If they are already threatening your existence, why haven’t you fired your nukes yet?
I notice the lack of ‘he’s not doing enough’ and ‘he’ll never do enough’ crowd here.
Hello. I’m that crowd.
Are you saying this is enough? Cuz from what I can tell… not even close. Even with the aid package that he almost certainly takes credit for.
Oh. Wait this is part of that, huh.
No, I’m saying it’s something. Every time I engage with one of you you’re decrying everything he’s working on as nothing and attributing that ‘nothing’ to his entire presidency.
Then You’re clearly not paying attention.
The aid package that dropped had a shit load of hands on it. Biden did some lifting, but it was mostly house leadership that did the heavy lifting.
You’re clearly unwilling to give credit everywhere it’s due as if Biden touching something makes it solely his.
We aren’t talking about the aid package. We’re talking about the secret delivery of missiles to Ukraine.
Oh, I know, but the missilesnwere part of the match aid package. Which only just now got delivered. The only thing “secret” about it was the contents.
Biden didn’t go out of his way to help, much. At best he either reversed course or the stink about not giving them long range ATACMS was disninformation.
Either way, he’s holding a garden house to an apartment fire. Like he is on basically enerything.
And to be perfectly blunt he could and should do more. So doing “something” is almost insulting.
Compare this to ardent and zealous support of Israel as they fucking genocide Palestinians.
Right here. I’m glad he’s doing this… finally.
Now if only he would stop doing it to Israel.
So, neutral attitude about the whole thing.
It’s like those people who say to look at the economy, like even if it was doing great because of him that doesn’t change that he is sending more and more weapons to Israel
‘Do that’, Marje? I’m not a comic book president. Do you seriously think I would explain my master stroke to you if there were even the slightest possibility you could affect the outcome? I shipped it 35 days ago.
I read on Lemmy that is was a “secret”. Promise not to tell anyone or this won’t be a secret anymore.
/s
Isn‘t cluster munition considered illegal/ a war crime?
Others already answered properly on the legality.
The US cluster munitions (dpicm) have a dud/failure rate of around 5%. The Russian cluster munitions a dud/failure rate of around 30-40%.
The main reason for not using cluster munitions is with a high dud rate it covers the land in unexploded ordenance. And in the past limited conflicts this was a real issue… low intensity fights in areas with a lot of civilians. The chance of some kid playing and finding some UXO is horrible. But Ukraine is positional warfare, trenches, and more UXO around the battlefields that anyone can imagine. A few more won’t matter on that balance… but the DPICM are very valuable to the Ukranians to fend off Russians.
The US has said in their doctrine that precision from artillery is preferred above blanket firepower, but there is a current request from the arms industry to provide a round with a 1% dud rate. As the cluster munitions serve a purpose.
It helps that when one uses them on their own land, they are more likely to carefully track where they were used and can conduct cleanup operations when feasible.
Maybe, but tracking is probably not enough. Future generations of Ukranian kids will be taught in school what UXO looks like and to steer clear and warn an adult.
The cleanup operation will be massive… Here I hope that drones and machine learning can help spot the ordenance at scale… but the clean up of this war will last longer than the war itself.
There is a Convention on Cluster Munitions but many of the world’s largest military powers are not signatories to it, including all of the top five by expenditure in America, China, Russia, India, and Saudi Arabia. Ukraine is also not a signatory.
Kinda. Importantly, the Convention on Cluster Munitions was not ratified by the US, Ukraine, or Russia. There isn’t any legal issue there.
Ukraine and Russia have both been using cluster munitions and the US has previously provided cluster munitions to Ukraine. They work well, they are getting used.
No. The US, Ukraine, and Russia aren’t signatories to the convention on cluster munitions.
Only in countries that signed the treaty.
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I didn’t see nothing.
We are reading this news right now so it is not secret anymore I guess…
This is the best summary I could come up with:
The United States previously supplied Ukraine with a version of the Army Tactical Missile Systems — known as ATACMS — armed with wide-spreading cluster munitions that can travel 100 miles.
Overnight Tuesday, Ukraine used the longer-range missiles to strike Russian troops in the port city of Berdiansk on the Sea of Azov, the senior U.S. official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss operational matters.
Last Wednesday, social media accounts in Ukraine reported large fires and explosions at a military airfield in Dzhankoi, Crimea, which the senior administration official said was also a long-range ATACMS target.
In a major policy shift, President Biden secretly approved the decision to send more than 100 of the longer-range missiles in mid-February, the senior U.S. official said, as well as more of the cluster munition variant.
In praising the infusion of military assistance, including the new missiles, lawmakers and Mr. Zelensky have made no mention of the fact that Ukraine already received and employed a small number of the weapons, presumably to keep their use secret from Russia.
Still, many advocates of arming Ukraine have dismissed the Biden administration’s fear of escalating the conflict with Russia and have urged the White House to give Kyiv the weapons Ukrainian officials say they need to win.
The original article contains 972 words, the summary contains 212 words. Saved 78%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
