cross-posted from: https://lemmy.crimedad.work/post/138601
“That son of a bitch, Bibi Netanyahu, he’s a bad guy,” said Biden privately, according to Woodward. “He’s a bad fucking guy!”
Reads like a bloody Onion article.
“But we’ll still give him whatever he wants. That AIPAC there frightens me”
Literally…
This comment didn’t happen yesterday, it was months ago. And Biden still hasn’t changed.
And it still hasn’t stopped Bibi from pushing for trump
There is literally no benefit for loyalty to a facist government, the second you’re not 100% with them you’re 100% against them. It’s the same way trump acts
There has been a change in what he says.
But yeah, still nothing on what he does.
There has been a change in what he says.
Has there?
I’m not talking backroom comments like this, I mean public statements
He’s publicly accusing Israel of supporting Trump. He didn’t publicly accuse them of anything before that.
Do you happen to have a link?
I searched and couldn’t find anything, but searching anything with “Biden, trump, Israel” kind of floods the results
Here you go, as requested:
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cje3zl0dq2ko (Biden specifically)
https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/4914933-netanyahu-gaza-hezbollah-interference/ (Dems more generally)
And it still hasn’t stopped Bibi from pushing
There is literally no benefit for loyalty to a facist government, the second you’re not 100% with them you’re 100% against them.Agreed.
This comment didn’t happen yesterday, it was months ago. And Biden still hasn’t changed.
Biden is almost out anyways. Here’s hoping this will be different once Harris has a freer hand.
AIPAC and Citizens United are actually frightening.
https://abcnews.go.com/538/pro-israel-groups-spent-big-oust-squad-members/story?id=113675889
https://apnews.com/article/cori-bush-aipac-house-race-missouri-568c1a84974b8ba176a8d27a8375de42
They are able to change the outcome of races with seemingly unlimited money. A spend of 8.4 million in a Missouri primary is absurd, and likely is a drop in the bucket of what is spent influencing the presidential race.
I don’t think there is a way to fix this either, since the people that should be writing laws to prevent it are the ones benefiting the most.
I imagine this is also happening in Republican primaries, so one can’t just vote differently to address the root cause. Both republicans and Democrats seem to be tripping over each other to prove what a friend they are to Israel. It’s really weird and stressful to be a US citizen right now.
It’s really weird and stressful to be a US citizen right now.
I can’t even begin to express how stressed I’ve been over this.
Anyone that has the misfortune of recognizing they’ve been encountering my comments of pure exasperation lately will attest to that…
I’m generally a pessimistic person, but I truly believe Trump is going to win this and the heritage foundation is going to be able to implement their plan to solidify control of the government.
Don’t give up hope. Harris is up +4 in Pennsylvania
Its pretty damn sad that we are being told to enthusiastically settle for the, “nothing will fundamentally change” candidate, in the face of obvious genocide and war crimes. But its hard to argue with the idea that a dem centrist beats a gop candidate. I wonder if that will ever change, or are we now permanently stuck voting for 5% better than fascism in every election.
We definitely need to keep hope, but unfortunately the way polls have worked out it’s like +4 is actually -2 when the real results come in.
There was an article I read the other day about polling accuracy and they essentially said even just one week out polls are generally only 60% accurate. While I’d love to believe that gives more room for Harris, I think the more realistic scenario is that people are ashamed to admit they’re voting for Trump so he’s just showing lower support in polling than really exists. :(
:(
This is very important info.
I find here on Lemmy folks don’t often consider these types of second order consequences.
It’s very ugly but it has to be considered.
Lemmy? Pick any platform. It’s full of “experts” shouting into the void for years now. It’s sickening how these people have the same rights to vote. (/A obviously)
Your common folk knows Jack shit about their own politics and even less so about global ones. It’s good to hold people accountable but this? This is just madness. There is zero nuance and only goes from one extreme to other. Yes we all want zero civilian deaths, full tolerance, equal rights and for police to be better. But are there any real solutions out here? Ofc not. Just another cave dweller parroting same arguments they read somewhere. Critical thinking is a thing of the past. And it’s sad as I haven’t got an answer either.
So you’re saying Israel actually controlling the US?
In a roundabout, totally legal way, yes they are. Technically it is a US organization that wants to strengthen US ties with Israel, so it’s totally not foreign influence /s
The last person to push AIPAC to be registered as a foriegn lobbyist group was Kennedy. He was murdered shortly afterwards. Unfortunate coincidence.
I hope someday Americans realize that its not scary muslims that are America’s enemy, its the zionists, and it always has been since partition.
I mean that’s simply because Muslims don’t have an effect on America’s policies or population for the most part. Any Abrahamic religion is problematic.
I remember an Malaysian ex-Prime Minister was denounced by George W. Bush for saying that the Jews are ruling the world by proxy. Saying it’s the Jews is definitely extreme, but with these organizations and what we’re seeing playing out politically, it’s hard to say there’s no truth in what that PM said.
Not all Jews are Zionists.
I agree with that, and I don’t think what I said alleges that all Jews are Zionists. Mahatir is labelled an antisemite and openly critical of Israel. He claims to have Jewish friends however. Now I don’t agree with this old fart on a lot of things, and I definitely condemn the fact that he’s using the word “Jews” when criticizing Israel and Zionism. But when you have wealthy Jewish organizations actively lobbying for Zionism in one if not the most powerful nation on Earth to continue facilitating the horrors that we see playing out in the Middle East with no intention or desire of stopping, even when their own people are dying in the process, I find it hard to disagree that these Zionsists aren’t in control of the world to some extent.
four million in donations (that we know of) buys A LOT of loyalty.
Maybe stop sending them billions in weapons then, eh?
In an election year? That’s political suicide in the US to Harris by proxy, given how many people are brainwashed over there.
The majority of Americans are opposed to sending weapons to Israel. Even the majority of Republicans.
Supporting Israel for political gain is a vastly overstated argument. It exists to justify sending weapons to Israel.
It is very similar to the previous claim that Biden should not have been replaced because he was the incumbent.
Unfortunately the polling I’ve seen doesn’t agree with you. It’s a majority of Democrats, a minority of the country.
The majority doesn’t matter because of gerrymandering and the electoral college. AFAIK the majority of Republicans are not opposed to it. A simple majority that might exist does not matter if the other absolute majority of the other options is bigger. You are also acting as if it wouldn’t be politicized and propagandized if suddenly one group started coming out against Israel, which would significantly affect polling from independents and break away republicans. Politics are a reactive environment, not a static one.
Support for Israel has been very high historically in the US. It is only recently where it has declined significantly, and not really enough to make it not be the elephant in the room. And I can assure you, any relation you see between this issue and Biden not being replaced is PEBKAC, that involves a host of very different issues that you are only simplifying down to be similar in your head. For one, the change from Biden didn’t result in another foreign state, specially one that has experience and weight with influencing US and western institutions (AIPAC ring any bells?), trying to influence US elections, rather, it dismantled the efforts from the foreign state already involved in election manipulation that were singularly focused on Biden, forcing them into disarray.
He had the chance to legitimize the option. They have the evidence, and they have the laws. He treated both of those like chopped liver and that was that. He’s locked in now.
Drag thinks giving guns to murderers is the political suicide.
In America, it is.
They didn’t stop to think: what if people don’t want to vote for genocide? Oh well, we won’t give them that option because genocide is an American value. See: native Americans.
Sometimes I wonder if Blinken dreams he could back to the times of the Wild West just so that he could shoot Indians and their food supply from the top of his high train.
He’s American, of course he dreams of murder.
Haha, yeah Blinken. After Blinken played guitar in some bar a few months ago and some reddit threads were overflowing with astroturfed comments saying he should be the next American president, I wanted to vomit. But clearly, the monied interests are planning to run Blinken for pres in the future. Thats the future of the mighty Democratic party. To do that successfully they will need to keep the American right on a crazy train so Blinken is palatable. Its going to be a messed up next 20 years.
Tired and factually incorrect narrative. Grow a spine.
It’s so simple, even a random person on the internet with no knowledge of how any of it actually works has figured it all out!
Yeah! Just… break a decades-long agreement. There no nuance to this at all! No complications…
amirite?
There can’t possibly be any penalties or repercussions for that! I mean. A random internet citizen said to do it- so……
Easy peezy!
So we throw away the “rules based international order” and return to the pre-1914 unilateral rules and all the brutal wars that bought? So much better, amirite? Might makes right, and we’ve got the might
for now!The US stance on Israeli leadership is decimating our ability to wield soft power influence. We are global hypocrites blocking ANY action, whilst expecting the world to fall in line to support Ukraine against Russian revanchism - even NATO members dissent from the US position. The global south is turning to China/OPEC+ trading blocs. They already tried to break the petrodollar, which would be a huge blow if successful.
Even taking a realpolitik approach, without soft power all those US military bases used for ‘power projection’ lose their local consent, and become occupation sites inside non-allied nations. The Muwaffaq Salti Air Base in Jordan is a chill spot for launching COIN drone missions - whereas the Conoco base in Syria is constantly under drone and rocket attack.
Supporting Bibi’s wars of aggression is a stupid play on multiple levels.
I never said it was good to support it (though I’m sure that won’t stop people from reporting me for being a genocide apologist). Only that it’s a very complicated and nuanced thing to just assume it should be easy to simply stop because we want it to.
Nothing would make me happier than to see the issue resolved and for people to stop being hurt. But that’s not for me to decide. With a vote or otherwise.
And that’s because it’s a very complicated agreement. Nations don’t just decide to break them. Regardless of your strong opinions on the matter.
Maybe stop sending them billions in weapons then, eh?
I see at least three actions in that statement:
- Stop giving them billions in free weapons
- Stop giving them any weapons
- Stop them
#1 should have happened a long time ago imo, if not used as a leverage to prevent an Israeli ground invasion of
Rafah,the West Bank,Lebanon, striking enrichment at Natanz. “Free bombs for crimes against humanity” is a bad moral play, bad politics, and bad diplomacy outside the US:Israel sphere.#2 Is politically hard normally, impossible in an election cycle. I hate it, but here we are in the house we built. Make FEC the only campaign funds - it’s OUR government, not the highest bidder’s.
#3 The US’s geopolitical track record shows that we’ll tolerate some awful, terrible people if they’ll get ‘on our side’ even if there’s a trend of massive and foreseeable blowback, the diplomatic corps don’t learn lessons.
And my point is:
- It’s more complicated than that
- It’s more complicated than that
- it’s more complicated than that.
What I’m trying to say is that none of us are experts on the subject. And those that are suggest that, guess what?
Yeah. It’s more complicated than that.
And I chose to believe the experts on the matter. But when they’re ready to argue music theory, I’ll eat their lunch. 😀
If the “experts” told you that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, would you believe them?
So… those experts weren’t American. They were from the UK and Denmark.
Try again bud.
The US military-industrial complex does not need you to defend it.
It might well be more complex than that, but you have every right to demand from your government to put its vast resources to use in order to tackle that complexity. Given the severity of the situation, I’d say you have a responsibility to.
Seeing such a tragedy unfold and going ‘oh, my government probably has a good reason to keep funding the active genocide, I’d hate to give some extra paperwork to our bureaucrats by making a fuss!’ is very defeatist, to put it politely.
Demand as much you’d like. It’s a right to do so. However the problem is, we have assholes that are withholding their vote because their unreasonable demands aren’t being met. And yes, expecting a nation to simply just… end an agreement is unreasonable.
Because again- it’s NUANCED AND COMPLICATED.
And therein is the problem.
I’d love for just ONE of these people demanding we stop sending weapons to Israel to lay out a plan on exactly how to go about it. Because I’d love to see that! I’d LOVE to see it happen, because I HATE that it’s happening to begin with.
I’m sure the pentagon, the White House and even Palestine would love to see that as well.
But no. That won’t happen. Because it’s so much easier to just demand a thing you don’t understand, than it is to accept that what you demand is unreasonable in the context of what actually needs to happen for it to work.
And therein lies my point.
We ALL want that shit to stop. ALL of us. It’s a no brainer to want to end the supply of weapons to those that use them to harm innocent people. But saying “Look at me! I want the US to stop supplying arms to Israel! I’m a good guy! Give me internet points!” Isn’t helping anyone. I could do that shit all day. It doesn’t change anything.
Provide a seamless and workable plan to end the supply or stop assuming it’s that easy. Because it’s easy to say a thing should be done.
It’s MUCH harder to actually do it.
Its really not that hard, the US just has to lay demands down to Israel and follow through with them. You stop making things worse by doing X by Y date, if you dont we stop providing you one type of weapon you need least. If you dont do it by Z date you lose something more important. Repeat until they realise you’re not bluffing.
The problem isn’t that its beyond the wit of man for the US to figure out how to use its immense leveage over Israel, its that it chooses not to.
So I’m to assume you disagree with leading experts on the subject? Because NPR had them on a few mornings ago and they said exactly as I’m saying- it’s incredibly complicated and nuanced.
But you seem to know everything. Perhaps you should tell them they’re wrong.
I’m done with this. There’s no getting through to anyone here.
I think the issue people arguing with you that you don’t seem to get is that not everyone does want it to stop.
You seem blind to that reality that there is a large portion who arent even looking or talking that people are dying.
Who think what is going on and continuing is fine, or even good or right. And those people are in the positions to even try to limit any of it, and wont.
You’re not arguing honestly if you really claim the reason no one in power speaks against it is because it’s too hard? That seems really unlikely doesn’t it? “It’s difficult and we’re looking at legal options” and “we will continue to arm and defend them” are wholly different.
Soup is an absolute moron with a nuance fetish.
Every matter must be super complex because it hasn’t been solved…failing to recognize not everyone wants the problem solved because they benefit from it not being solved. NUANCE!
Either that or they’re a Zionist intentionally derailing conversion by finding new “parliamentarian says no” situations for why the genocide must continue.
Agreed. Soup is likely here to tire everyone out with his blather. He doesnt post anything in good faith and I doubt he beleives what he says. He is just a classic troll. Sad really. Best to block the user and move on.
The irony of you commenting this to a Lemmy.ml account
You entirely missed the point of everything I’ve said- whether it be on purpose or not, I’m done trying to explain this shit. It’s a pointless exercise in futility to even try and have a nuanced discussion here.
You haven’t really said anything though. You just keep claiming “it’s complicated bro”. How? We’re reasonable people here, for the most part. If you can explain why it’s not simple, people might listen.
I’ve explained it already throughout this entire thread.
I’d love for just ONE of these people demanding we stop sending weapons to Israel to lay out a plan on exactly how to go about it
I’m pretty sure the answer you’re going to get is “1. Stop sending them 2. Profit”
Pretty much:
Canada joins the Netherlands, Japan, Spain and Belgium in suspending arms sales in the wake of Israel’s brutal military offensive in Gaza. Many other nations have said they will no longer purchase Israeli weapons.
It’s not “nuanced and complicated”… if you’re a lemmy.ml shill trying to get Trump elected
Since you are a person “with knowledge of how any of it works”, please share with the class what those penalties and repercussions are. Educate us poor ignorant “random Internet citizens”.
I don’t have knowledge of how it works. And that is why you don’t seem me injecting my bullshit take on how to resolve it. I don’t claim to know how easy it is to just…. Break a decades long agreement.
I do however listen to the experts when they say that it’s incredibly complicated and detailed situation that goes back decades and involves two countries that have had a conflict since 1948 officially, and predates even that. And that it’s not so simple to just…. Break a decades long agreement.
See?
That’s how an understanding of NUANCE works. You start by learning that you don’t know everthing, and finish with the understanding that not everthing is as black and white as you’d like it to be- that there will always be others that know more about it than you do, and that you should listen to them.
And no, I’m not one of them. I’m simply advocating that you seek them out and listen to what they say. Because I guarantee you, they’re going to school you on what you thought you knew about how to navigate geopolitical diplomacy.
We can all hope that the powers that be find a way to end this as soon as possible. But we’re not helping anyone by assuming simplicity where there isn’t any.
Your argument is silly. There are laws on the book that empower the State Department to block arms transfers to Israel. The only way this can be undone is if Congress repealed the laws, which is hardly likely.
So, what you’re saying is that it’s….
Complicated?
I think part of why you’re getting downvoted to hell is because your initial comment reads like “I don’t have the answers (none of us do), but I know yours is wrong. I’m not contributing any facts to show why you’re wrong, but because I feel strongly that you are, I’ve decided to be insulting about it.”
I get it, world politics is complicated. Absolutely no action on a world stage is without unexpected consequences. But that in itself is not an argument for arming an ethnostate we know to be killing civilians at an alarming rate. And the unexpected consequences would have to be damned severe to outweigh the known consequences of our current actions: if we keep providing weapons to Israel, those weapons will be used to kill women and children in droves.
No, I’m being downvoted because the majority of lemmy doesn’t understand how nuanced topics work. It’s all or nothing. “With us, or against us.”
It’s a hive mind mentality here.
With this in mind, it’s not a stretch to understand that one doesn’t need to know how things should be done to know how things shouldn’t be done.
Want an example? I don’t know the right way to safely jump out of an airplane is, but I know that doing it without a parachute is fucking stupid.
And this same logic is applied to the idea that it’s easy to just end treaties and agreements and assume there’d be no consequences. Those that have the power to end them- yeah… THEY know.
But I know, it’s SOOOOOO much easier to just fill in the blanks with whatever bullshit suits an argument than it is to actually look into it. I’ve looked into it. And as I r already mentioned- EXPERTS in the field have said it’s incredibly complicated
Lastly, I don’t give a shit about being downvoted. It’s an irrelevant and worthless carryover from Reddit that should never have happened.
It literally is as simple as “stop arming their military with American tax dollars”
What part of this is so difficult to understand?
Oh, I know. It’s because you don’t give a shit. All this performative hand wringing and “nuance” talk just serving to distract from the fact that another dozen kids got shot in the head today with American 7.62.
performative hand wringing
Is literally exactly what you’re doing by whinging on the internet without discussing concrete steps on how to actually end the arms agreement.
“You expect America, with its history of breaking promise and agreement and doing whatever the fuck it wants and giving two middle fingers to anyone that doesnt like it… to break its promises and agreements with Israel to prevent a genocide? THE NERVE! HOW UNCOUTH! WHY I NEVER!”
Yet another person that thinks it’s simple and easy- while offering no solution.
Removed by mod
Again with the false accusations. That’s a clear indicator that you have no argument.
Sure buddy.
You keep towing that line.
Still waiting for your argument here that doesn’t involve insults.
Come on now. You can do this.
Oh, and it’s “toeing” the line. Maybe fix that before you decide to smart-ass the next person make this mistake again.
It is.
It was easy enough for Reagan, Bush Sr, Bush Jr, and Obama.
It is easy enough to do again.
Seriously, do you have no idea about recent history?
You’re right, they should keep supporting acts of genocide because doing anything else is just too darn hard.
Very well said!
Israel is going to impose “penalties” on the US? Are you high?
What do you think happens when America stops supplying Israel? Think they’ll just stop attacking Palestine?? They’ve already said that don’t really need America chipping in. And they don’t.
So… when America just- stops sending them arms, the next bidder steps in. That’s what happens.
And that’s going to be either China or Russia. And they wont have any restrictions like America does. (And before you say “what restrictions” I’d urge you to try and understand what’s involved in the pact). Russia and or China will absolutely allow them to decimate Palestine. And even help if necessary.
And if America doesn’t end up going to war with them over this, guess, who they’re all most likely turning their sights on once Palestine becomes a gravel pit?
This is just ONE example. There are MANY others. Pay attention when the experts on the sublet discuss this. You’ll learn something just as I did.
And lastly…. What could be done, at best, is America might be able to leverage additional conditions. And if you’ve been paying attention- they’ve been trying to do just that this entire time.
Again- nuance. Understand it.
So… when America just- stops sending them arms, the next bidder steps in. That’s what happens. And that’s going to be either China or Russia.
lol, holy shit
Man… I’m really done wasting my time trying to explain simple concepts to far leftists. What a fucking waste of time.
You really think China and Russia would give billions of free weapons to Israel?
I really think they’d go to someone, and negotiates would ensue. I can’t predict the outcome because I’m not an idiot that makes assumptions.
And again, I am not the one making these decisions. I’m simply offering an example of how it would be incredibly difficult to just simply- stop.
Which is more than anyone that’s countering the argument.
“It’s so easy! Just stop sending weapons! Break a trade agreement! No consequences at all because Israel is so well know as a nice and understanding nation!”
Israel doesn’t get to threaten the world with our weapons. That’s why we have laws about this specific thing.
Soooo… what’s your solution? Solve the problem. Let’s see you explain away and solve something even experts in the field say is incredibly complicated.
Also. While you’re at it, go ahead and show your credentials that give you the authority to tell an entire administration that you know shit that they don’t.
Yeah so I used to work as a Civil Affairs soldier. So I know what is a war crime, what level is culpable for different war crimes, and the laws around the US giving different types of aid.
From our POV it’s actually pretty simple. Israel has committed massive war crimes that have literally indicted the Prime Minister. Even credible allegations of war crimes are enough to make sending military or cash aid illegal. The only things we’re legally allowed to send to Israel are food, construction material, medical support, and energy infrastructure.
So it’s not actually complicated, like, at all.
Okay, it’s think a “Civil Affairs Soldier” should already know this, but….
What do you think happens when America stops supplying Israel? Think they’ll just stop attacking Palestine?? They’ve already said that don’t really need America chipping in. And they don’t. So… when America just- stops sending them arms, the next bidder steps in. That’s what happens.
And that’s going to be either China or Russia.
And they wont have any restrictions like America does. (And before you say “what restrictions” I’d urge you to try and understand what’s involved in the pact). Russia and or China will absolutely allow them to decimate Palestine. And even help if necessary.
And if America doesn’t end up going to war with them over this, guess, who they’re all most likely turning their sights on once Palestine becomes a gravel pit?
This is just ONE example that makes it not so “easy” as you all think it is.
There are MANY others.
Maybe pay attention when the experts on the sublet discuss this. You’ll learn something just as I did. And lastly…. What could be done, at best, is America might be able to leverage additional conditions. And if you’ve been paying attention- they’ve been trying to do just that this entire time. Again- nuance. Understand it.
Oh no! You mean they weren’t genuine friends in the first place? So why would I care about them switching sides? If we couldn’t actually depend on them then we should be kicking them to the curb.
And it’s not about shutting down the genocide, we have other tools for that. This is about our culpability and sending a message of what’s required to be in the western sphere. This is exactly why the Leahy Law was passed. So we didn’t have to sit here and listen to cold war logic in the 21st century.
I knew this was pointless to get into. I knew it as I was doing it. But someone has to be the common sense counter to the rhetoric.
I said my part in this. I’m not going to debate you on it.
Removed by mod
Fitting username. I’m done interacting with you.
More lies to make the rubes think he is against the genocide. He has done this many times before and its always utterly meaningless.
forgot the government was called Biden Tower
Can we stop reporting on Biden or whoever else using salty language unless it’s something along the lines of “I’m cutting off the fucking military aid.”?
That won’t happen, both parties are bought out by AIPAC, just AIPAC will stop splitting the money and give it only to the one who doesn’t give them what they want. If a Democrat president said “I’m ending this here, enough bloodshed” AIPAC would fund the Republicans, despite how much Republicans hate Jews, quietly and publicly.
I’m not trying to defend the literal actual genocide, I’m trying to say the money makes them keep their hands flowing with greenbacks and blood of civilians.
EDIT: The two below, I blocked you before two for being liberals who have defended genocide and argue that somehow Democrats need to support the genocide and its a good thing that AIPAC owns both parties. Mainly soup is a troll who acts smarter than everyone else.
I think there’s a much more lively audience who’s votes could be won with the simple free act of stopping weapons sales to Israel or banning their use on civilian infrastructure.
Blinken does this to Ukraine on a regular basis literally to avoid escalation, to the point of absurdity like not letting Ukraine strike Russian military bases where glide bombs are being launched from…
…but somehow this administration is dumbfounded about how we can curtail Israel from blowing up ambulances and orphanages?
I think there’s a much more lively audience who’s votes could be won with the simple free act of stopping weapons sales to Israel or banning their use on civilian infrastructure.
The issue is that lively audience is mostly made up of those folks commonly known as “the poors”, and therefore their opinion doesn’t matter.
This is exactly the fact they never want to hear, and instantly ignore, then forget the moment you bring it up.
said Biden privately
You literally just gave a fucking press conference.
The logical conclusion in the face of Biden’s other actions such as keeping on sending weapons to Netanyahu and protecting him in the UN, is that this “leak” is a purposeful and carefully crafted bit of PR from Biden’s team.
By their own track record, Biden and his minions are about as trustworthy as Netanyahu.
Biden and his minions are about as trustworthy as Netanyahu.
You’re leveraging ‘about as’ pretty heavily here.
There is no real different between two kind of shameless liars covering up mass murder of children.
One might even say Netanyahu is at times less dishonest (if one could measure “honesty” at such infinitesimal levels) because he’s more open about his murderous intentions.
Biden on the other hand is a full blown hypocrite who claims to want to stop Netanyahu whilst knowingly sending him the very 2000lb bombs used in residential areas in Gaza and Lebanon, a kind which the US Military itself does not use because its collateral damage is too massive.
They’re both sociopaths, it’s just that while Netanyahu is playing a “strong man” character whilst Biden plays the “powerless to act gentleman”, and many in more modern nations don’t recognized the shameless lying under the latter style as easily as they do under the former.
Yes exactly, everyone should stay home instead of voting so Trump wins.
When did they say that exactly?
They’re trying to discourage progressives which could easily make them stay home and let Trump win.
You assume too much.
I simply have principles and won’t just stand quiet in the face of evildoing, no matter what the excuse.
As I pointed out multiple times before, the simplest thing is for one man, Joe Biden, to change the way he acts, not for millions to close their eyes and swallow their principles (or for thousands of useful idiots to come out and defend his indefensible actions, making themselves accomplices along with him in the mass murder of children).
In 10 or 20 years’ time, when the full form of this Holocaust is known, I will know I was always on the right side and you and those like you will be trying to forget how you tainted your hands with the blood of children, protecting Biden from being forced to not help murder them anymore.
I’ll leave you with a thought: do you think the bombing of residential neighborhoods in Beirut with 2000lb bombs sent from the US (which the US Military refuses to use because the collateral damage is too great) which has killed countless civilians including children, would have happened without the useful idiots and tribalists having spend the last year doggedly defending of Biden allowing him to send ever more and more dangerous weapons to Israel? To you really think the chain of events that has resulted in Israel extending the war to Lebanon would’ve still happened if there was a massive outcry against Joe Biden and the Democrats 6 months ago, well before the election?
Glad to see people with a spine piping up on this website. I’m so fucking tired of the “non voters help Trump win” narrative. It’s so fucking pathetic.
Eh, non-voters in some states could help Trump win, but it’s hardly a universal thing. My bigger issue with this sort of rhetoric is that criticizing absolutely reprehensible policies advanced by the Democrats does not equal endorsing Trump, as many Zionist shills here like to claim. I want to be able to unreservedly back Democratic candidates in the upcoming elections, but “enables and supports genocide and the massacre of civilian men, women and children,” is one hell of a reservation to make your voters have.
Yeah I understand Trump has a better chance of winning if less people vote for Harris. My point is that instead of blaming voters for not wanting to vote for dems people need to blame the dems for not being worth voting for.
I’m afraid it doesn’t take much spine to speak up online, especially since I’m an European and hence with little at stake on the US Presidential race.
(Mind you, I do go beyond words and have a been a member of small Leftwing parties in two of the countries I lived in).
None the less, thanks for the compliment.
It’s mask-off really quickly when those who are kinder and engage when you flatly state you’re not voting Dem, too.
Youre not alone. I’m voting uncommitted along with many others.
You must have been living under a rock for months now if you still think Biden is the one running against Trump.
Further, I wonder what kind of Morals, Ethics and Principles a person must have to think others should stay mute about two-faced hypocrites actively helping the modern Nazis mass-murder children in, not one but TWO countries, lest the electoral chances of that person’s party are weakened.
One wonders just how many Nazi-support layers away from the actually Nazis does it take to stop being a Nazi? Is the Nazi-supporter still a Nazi? How about those who support and defend Nazi-supporters - are they Nazis?
You must have been living under a rock for months now if you still think Biden is the one running against Trump.
Straw man
Further, I wonder what kind of Morals, Ethics and Principles a person must have to think others should stay mute about two-faced hypocrites actively helping the modern Nazis mass-murder children in, not one but TWO countries, lest the electoral chances of that person’s party are weakened.
Low quality analysis and very biased take on what’s going on.
One wonders just how many Nazi-support layers away from the actually Nazis does it take to stop being a Nazi? Is the Nazi-supporter still a Nazi? How about those who support and defend Nazi-supporters - are they Nazis?
Implying I’m a Nazi. Rude and not even original. Not interested in engaging.
I was going to write that I don’t think you’re a Nazi, just giving yourself excuses to act in ways that taint you with their stink.
Then I saw this beauty:
actively helping the modern Nazis mass-murder children in, not one but TWO countries, lest the electoral chances of that person’s party are weakened.
Low quality analysis and very biased take on what’s going on.
Already after the Genocide was well underway Biden sent Israel 2000lb bombs, which the US itself does not use because their collateral damage is too large (they flatten entire housing blocks), which have been used by Israel in both Gaza and in residential areas in Lebanon resulting in horrible numbers of civilian casualties, including many children.
You Sir, have the morals of a Zionist, a modern Nazi.
God Lemmy is ridiculous sometimes
Feel free to head to reddit and not look back. The worldnews mods there will make darn sure you dont have to deal with these troublesome opinions that you dont agree with. Let me hold the door open for you so you can go. Have a good day now.
Rude and not even original. Not interested in engaging.
Agreed fuckingkangaroos@, yeah, genocide is one thing, but anything you claim to be “rude” should not be tolerated. Tell that guy GOOD DAY, SIR. Its hard to believe anyone would act so rudely about some run-of-the-mill mass murder. I bet that guy uses his salad fork to eat his dinner too. You were right to
run awaynot engage.Very cool, thanks so much for your insightful comment
deleted by creator
Zionists are Nazis.
Same propaganda techniques, same violent unrestrained racism, same calous murdering of those of the “wrong” race.
The only difference is that the “superior race” the Zionists claim to represent is a different one, as is the one they deem untermenschen (or specifically in their words “human animals”).
You can literally replace “Israel” for “Germany” and “Jewish People” for “Arian Race” in some of the speeches coming from the Israeli government to end up with something pretty close to some of the Nazi speeches.
If you want to be technical about it, Zionists are ethno-Fascists - which is a rarer and far more racist and violent kind of Fascism than the traditional one - like the Nazis but they’re not specifically the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (so, not actually the NAZI party), just a modern version of it with a different set of races they see as ubermenschen and untermenschen (what the Zionists call “the chosen people” and the “human animals”).
So yeah, a guy like Biden actively supporting these modern Nazis with weapons whilst they commit Genocide is also a Nazi (just like somebody giving the KKK weapons knowing they will be used to kill afro-americans counts as being KKK) and those people doggedly coming out to defend Biden of any and all criticism of his actions in this are tainting themselves with the stink of this modern Nazism (they can hardly claim they’re against the mass murder of children whilst actively protecting one of the key guys in making it possible)
Or rank and file dems should grow the courage of their convictions and organize to stop allowing the dem centrists to take the zionist campaign money. Polls show most Americans dont support The zionists colonization and their associated war crimes.
Why does Biden need PR when he’s a lame duck?
Because his abysmal approval ratings bring Harris’s down too. Harris has never been good at formulating any statement of her own principles-- even back when she was running for president against Biden, she had no platform, just bromides that polled well. She’s a cardboard cutout.
Cause his VP isn’t.
His VP can come out and voice her disagreement with his actions, distancing herself from him and those actions.
It’s the simplest solution by far.
Not doing so and instead having the party loyalists go around raging at any who criticize Biden’s complicity in Genocide, is not the simplest solution.
And yet here we are, with the tribalists piling up on any criticism online instead of Kamala Harris simply voicing her disagreement with Biden’s policies.
One wonders why exactly the chosen option is not the simplest and most likely to lead to a Trump defeat.
Lol. All this is performance anyway. If Harris voiced her disagreement with Biden, the right wing media would have a field day with how disorganized the Dems are and how they can’t be trusted to lead.
The “right wing media” (what I would call the far-right media here in Europe) will say pretty anything quite independently of it being true or not. They’ve relentlessly been making shit up about Democrats and will keep on doing so.
The people who believe the “right wing media” are never going to vote for Kamala because they already believe a massive pile of unbelievable bollocks about her.
“The right wing media will say” isn’t quite the powerful argument that you think it is for the future POTUS to keep her association with an unrepentant Genocide enabler and supporter.
I’m explaining their rational for the theater. Not mine.
Living in fear of right wing bullying is not productive. We can either cower or we can kick them in the face or ridicule them when they go low. The dems do far too much cowering the past few decades. Americans love a good snappy comeback, and so far all we have doing it is old coach Waltz.
Now say it in public and act accordingly.
Defend Israel, but not Netanyahu’s government.
Why defend an ethnostate?
The Jewish people have the right to a home state as facing antisemitism has been a distinct reality of their cultural past. Of course, both Israel and Palestine deserve the right to self govern and their people the right to self determination. The civilized world shouldn’t accept genocide from allies either
The Jewish people have the right to a home state as facing antisemitism has been a distinct reality of their cultural past.
Do we all get free stuff based on our great-grandparents’ past, or are past situations nearly a century ago outweighed by the present?
Consider how your answer relates to climate change.
present situation is there’s millions of israelis so they’re not going anywhere, and millions of palestinians and they’re not going anywhere either. two states
The Jewish people have the right to a home state as facing antisemitism has been a distinct reality of their cultural past.
No. No one has the right to an ethnostate.
Putting aside whether it is right or wrong, having an ethnostate doesn’t make the Jewish people any more safe. The proof is that Jews are safer in America than they are in Israel.
The Jews being safe in the US is sadly not guaranteed in the future, especially with the rise of Nazis here. The existence of Israel isn’t guaranteed either, but the thing that compelled many people to establish it is that Jews at least had some agency in their own safety there.
The Jewish people have the right to a home state as facing antisemitism has been a distinct reality
No. They dont. And stop pretending that the zionists speak for all jews. They do not now and never have. There is no threat to global jewery except from the theiving and murderous actions of the zionists. No one cares about the jews, they do however want 2000 years of zionist criminality and terrorism to stop.
There is no “right” to steal other peoples land and kill them if they wont get off it. There never has been. This round started in 1947 when that “right” you describe was rewarded with land by the UN, to be equitably shared with the current inhabitants. The UNs pity party for the nazi’s crimes is long since over. Take it up with right wingers if you have a problem with the fascists, but dont claim a “right” from the rest of us that doesn’t exist and never has. Your philosophy is simple troglodyte thievery and religious entitlement, nothing more or less.
Balfour was bad, Herzl was bad in 1896.
No they fucking don’t.
cuz I’m opposed to all genocide actually
Because ethnostate is just the excuse people use. Look at the demographics, it’s very multicultural in population.
But it’s leadership sucks donkey balls and there is way too much religion in their society.
Fuck Israel too.
Why should anyone defend a colonization effort so badly off the rails and out of touch with basic human dignity? There has never been a reason besides $$$ to defend Israel. If we send Israel our addresses will they spread some of that sweet bribery our way? no?
Does defending Israel include extending equal rights to Palestinians and allowing the right of return for refugees and their descendants? Netanyahu or not, I don’t think an apartheid state should be defended, especially with resources that could instead be used to help with domestic issues in the US.
Yes, absolutely. Israel and Palestine are places where people live and community structures exist. They belong to the people who live there.
I actually believe a 1 state solution will be more stable in the long term. The defacto 2 state solution, with one under occupation will never work. The Palestinian vote should be enough to swing the Israeli government away from the right.
Restitution needs to be part of the process, but not at the cost of established long communities and stable communities. There is no magic wand to “make it back the way it was”. Communities are groups of people, not places. Focus on restoring the networks of people. It won’t be fair, but it might be the best option available.
To hell with divine rights and ancestor speak. Secular freedoms for all, before religious freedoms.
It’s the only way to peace in the region.
As to how to get to that point, I am terribly underqualified, but a Marshall style international intervention like what happened in Germany and Japan after WWII probably holds some value.
I don’t know how he would ever have expected anything different from Netanyahu. It’s not like this is the first time he failed to show the “restraint” Biden pleaded for (while simultaneously providing him with an unlimited supply of weapons).
This country is 1,000,000 Onion Articles in a trenchcoat.
In a trenchcoat, naked, flashing children in a schoolyard, yes.
The israelis cooperate with Bidens fake “leaks” as well, and pretend to be “upset”. As long as the arms keep flowing and the American youth and left is held down-- thats all that matters. While I loathe Trump, captured by Russia and murderous corruption, I also loathe Biden, a lifelong racist misogynist liar bought and paid for by the zionists. Both are also idiots putting on a pretty transparent show. The fact that many americans eat it up and accept it as normal doesnt speak well of us as a people. The western order is truly dead and buried.
yeah it couldn’t possibly be that international relations in the highly contentious middle east make the problems so tied to religious fundamentalism on both sides that the players are ideologically driven maniacs who will never accept any form of compromise because without the unwavering support of their hardcore adherents they won’t remain in power.
I’M SURE THAT HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO FUCKING DO WITH IT.
You know if these assholes - both sides - would stop listening to their imaginary friends and look at the reality on the ground, we might have a chance.
As is, we’re fucked until one of these gaggles of idiots sets off a nuclear war.
but mmm yeah blame both sides, you’re just looking at both sides on the wrong side of the fucking planet.
If you think what’s happening in Gaza is purely religious in nature you have absolutely no clue what’s going on. The state of Israel has been illegally occupying Palestine land for decades. They have concentration camps filled with Palestinians where they commit rape and torture.
Palestinians are fighting for freedom from oppression, they are not fighting for religious beliefs.
Biden and the American government have been supplying a terrorist state with weapons as they actively commit a genocide. That’s why people are pissed. Biden is literally giving weapons to a fucking war criminal.
If you think what’s happening in Gaza is purely religious in nature
I argue it couldn’t happen WITHOUT the influence of monotheistic madness.
Pray tell, without the religious fervor on all sides, how long would any of it last? for fucks sake, be realistic
edit: and your thesis, that Palestine is fighting a purely secular battle - is absolutely absurd. Explain the atrocities on oct 6 without theology, it doesn’t make you seem better, it’s damning.
ffs people, stop with the silly fucking excuses
You’re building a straw man, you’re the one asserting that religion is solely to blame when it’s just a tool that’s being applied as part of a larger more complex problem.
This situation could just as easily have a secular socialist resistance fighting the colonizer, similar to some of the Kurdish resistance groups fighting ISIS and in Syria.
The reason for the conflict is that a colonizing state operating an apartheid government is committing genocide on the people living there to expand their control and territory. Illegal settlements aren’t there because of Judaism they’re there because of imperialism.
Religion is being exploited on both sides as an excuse and to motivate the people, but it’s not the root cause.
Illegal settlements aren’t there because of Judaism they’re there because of imperialism.
facts disagree.
“The outpost builders are often driven by an ultra-hardline ideology that demands Jews populate all of Palestinian land and force Palestinians out.”
Two thirds are ideologically motivated - Haredim or Zionists. https://israelpolicyforum.org/west-bank-settlements-explained/
How do you go from secular motivation to this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_tag_attack_policy
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/hardliners-violently-expel-palestinians-to-expand-israeli-settlements-in-west-bank Eiyar insists the violence is caused by Palestinians refusing to accept what she sees as her biblical right to live on this disputed land, which they call Judea and Samaria, and that the only solution is for as many Israelis as possible to move here.
HOW THE FUCK DO YOU GET THAT MADNESS WITHOUT RELIGION?
BIBLICAL RIGHT?
So please, provide evidence it’s all secular. Religion is the root, it’s fucking rotten, it’s infected the entire region, and it’s only going to get worse.
You’re painfully ignorant. Nobody is saying religion isn’t a factor, you’re saying it’s the only factor.
We get it you’re an enlightened atheist, but that doesn’t mean things aren’t more complex
I’ve provided evidence for my thesis. all you have are insults and posturing.
have a great day.
the west has nothing to do with it they just simply set up the settler colonial apartheid state and gave it infinite weapons and constantly protect it from any retaliation.
oh yeah the guys with the colonial settlements aren’t religious at all huh?
lolwtf
They also wear shoes maybe the shoes are to blame.
As it always was and always has been, religion is used as a tool and an excuse but it’s not the root cause.
if shoes caused people to hate and murder each other that argument would make sense.
religion is the lever, put to the work of violence by amoral people, an easy task when they each assert theirs is the only way.
pfft. shoes.
a simple explanation for a simple mind
I’ll take that as a compliment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam’s_razor
“The simplest explanation is usually the best one.”
all the tiny brained downvoters, looking at the simplicity of life and saying “no, that needs jeebus!”
mojofrododojo, You should do some reading about how and why Hamas was formed. It was formed with Israeli and Russian help to fight the PLO and the two state solution mandated by the UN. It was initially formed to be nonreligious but Israel insisted it be religious.
"…Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s. Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as “a creature of Israel.”)
“The Israeli government gave me a budget,” the retired brigadier general confessed, “and the military government gives to the mosques.”"
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
This was always about shattering Palestine, taking their land, and using the vagaries of religious conflict as an excuse no one would dig too hard on.
lol I’ve been reading about Palestinian history for decades. you schmucks bought the british bullshit about the land being yours. and instead of cohabitating in peace, each side chose to murder people. over and over again. you build a settlement, they blow something up, you burn down their farms, they assassinate somebody. it never ends because both sides are certain god is with them.
it will never end as long as both sides keep listening to their invisible friends.
What religions do Ukrainians and Russians practice? I thought they were similar.
You fall right into that “pick a side and get in line to accept whatever their consultants want or get bribed to do” fallacy. If every Dem had pressured the dem leadership by voting uncommitted, the dem leadership would have known they were going to lose and changed course. But people like yourself take whatever slop falls on the floor and call that dogs dinner enough of a democracy. Thats Pathetic.
feel free to vote for Trump if you think that’s better. Or there’s always Jill Stein.
Meanwhile, in reality, you assholes are gonna keep the fight going until one side makes the other side glow in the dark, that’ll improve things IMMENSELY.
Glowingly pathetic.
you assholes are gonna keep the fight going until one side makes the other side glow in the dark
wow thats insightful mojofrododojo, yes–its obviously Jill Stein voters and progressives who are to blame for the war in the middle east. Dont forget the youth as well, those scumbags.
/s
oh you see a peace coming any time soon?
explain it to me then. how do you de-escalate? israel wants to kill as many as they can in palestine, gaza, hell now lebanon, 40k+ dead, how do you get people to stand down after that?
pffttt… wake up child.
Israel? One way or another, by sanctions, threats, politics, or actual boots on the ground, they have to be countered by force. That means a French/Spanish/Turkish (or someone else, but it almost has to include the French) contingent a few miles in from the Lebanese/Israeli border with their guns pointed in Israels directions and orders to fire if they are fired upon. And submarines ready to fire as well. And then a blockade by allied countries with a demand that the Israelis stop the murdering and land grabbing. I dont think the US would fire on the French. And once a credible force was in play, some of the middle east might consider an oil embargo to help. The Egyptians wont take up arms, but they might be persuaded to close the Suez to axis (the Israelis and their allies) ships.
Visas to citizens of Axis countries has to be curtailed as well for American citizens to wake up. That will be difficult but possible. Cut off Europe as a holiday destination and Americans will notice.
Whats your solution, just keep giving Israel whatever they want and deal with the refugees from the area? Or just let the goyim all die? I bet you have no plan at all and just exist here to troll. Lets see.
nothing is going to change as long as each side is letting their holy ideals lead them into war.
both sides.
but get rid of bibi tho, that’s a first for any progress.
problems so tied to religious fundamentalism on both sides
No actually, its the nakba. Its always been about the nakba and the murders done because of it. For 800 years of the existsnce of the ottoman empire the jews and muslims got along perfectly well in the middle east, and that ended when the ottoman empire was disolved after WW2… So history shows us your idea isnt true.
yeah that explains everything. so why did religion hold so solidly through the ottoman empire then fall apart after it’s stability left?
why did the sunnis and shiites start murdering each other after saddam ran?
maybe without some very powerful base to threaten both sides into compliance, they can’t help but murder each other. because their religion commands it.
the UK sold palestine twice. once to the Palestinians and then to the zionists.
and those two couldn’t fucking make a paradise out of it, no, they had to start killing each other immediately.
No shit, Joe!
I like Joey for a lot of things, but his handling of Israel is not one of them. The words simply don’t match the actions. They might decry Israel’s actions but quietly they’re giving them the go-ahead.
Do I detect a nuanced opinion. You do realize you’re posting on the Internet about American politics right?
Liberals can have a little genocide, as a treat. They’ve lost so much weight since segregation!
Right? Though I’ve often found those statements to be used to imply you can’t vote for the party because it’s a “treat”.
My intended joke was poking at this and it either didn’t come across or really hit a nerve based on the votes.
Joey?
put up or shut up motherfucker.
When this originally leaked months ago (almost a year actually), people were getting down voted for saying Biden was just mad that Netanyahu was making him look bad in PR.
What speaks louder?
Actions or words?
Fuck Joe Biden and fuck Amerikkka. ✊🏼
Nice to know that he at least can acknowledge reality?
But behind it is a state dept that is ignoring it’s own studies rank indictment of isreals murderous actions in order to keep feeding the beast. Maybe it’s some far-flung plan to give isreal and netenyahoo all the rope they need to hang themselves, becoming global outcasts, which would then force them into accepting a two-state solution… Or the problem is a lot simpler.
The records and interviews also show that the pressure to keep the arms pipeline moving also comes from the U.S. military contractors who make the weapons. Lobbyists for those companies have routinely pressed lawmakers and State Department officials behind the scenes to approve shipments both to Israel and other controversial allies in the region, including Saudi Arabia. When one company executive pushed his former subordinate at the department for a valuable sale, the government official reminded him that strategizing over the deal might violate federal lobbying laws, emails show.
Weapons sales are a pillar of American foreign policy in the Middle East. Historically, the U.S. gives more money to Israel for weapons than it does to any other country. Israel spends most of those American tax dollars to buy weapons and equipment made by U.S. arms manufacturers.
Don’t forget, while Biden and his state dept. is in charge of investigating and ensuring the proper use of these weapons, it’s congress that’s approving it. A congress that is balls-deep invested in U.S. weapons manufacturers.
For Israel and NATO allies, if the sale is worth at least $100 million for weapons or $25 million for equipment, Congress also gets final approval.
The most widely held defense contractor stock among senators and representatives is Honeywell, an American company that makes sensors and guiding devices that are being used by the Israeli military in its airstrikes in Gaza. The second most commonly held defense stock by Congress is RTX, formerly known as Raytheon, the company that makes missiles for Israel’s Iron Dome, among other weapons systems. - Sludge Article
