THEN FUCKING ARREST HIM.
Jesus. The rule of law is dead.
Maybe people will wake up to understand our system of “law and order” never was meant to serve people, only capital.
Excellent point, comrade.
The Justice Department warned Elon Musk’s America PAC
They can’t arrest a PAC.
They can arrest its board.
The DoJ didn’t say that the board members are committing crimes.
Who the fuck do you think the PAC acts on behalf of? Fuck the legal fiction of corporate personhood and the limitation of liability. If they mess with politics at all, the law should be able to breach the corporate veil and shove a gavel up the asses of those running these PACs.
The board is not collectively punished for the actions of a corporation. Prosecutors have to prove which individuals (if any) are criminally responsible, and often that’s more difficult than proving that the corporation is responsible.
Exactly. If you can’t point to the EXACT person that’s responsible for the committing of a crime, you can’t do anything about the crime and have to let it go on without interruption. There’s literally no other choice. /s
Yes, that’s how prosecutions work.
When someone is murdered, they don’t put three people on trial and say “One of these must be the killer, but we can’t figure out who. So we’ll have to send them all to prison”.
But in this case, they do have another choice: prosecute the corporation instead of individuals.
It’s so dumb that you’re getting downvoted for telling people the truth that they don’t want to hear. Of course you can’t just “prosecute the board”. Individually, they may or may not be complicit.
It does seem that Musk could be seen as obviously complicit, though, since he is the one out there making the pitch. DOJ should be able to go after him, criminally, if the activity continues, right?
I don’t know.
If you posted on Lemmy, “Hey, America PAC is offering money to registered voters, go check it out!” then I think that would be protected speech. If so, it would be equally protected when Musk posts that on X.
America PAC is on the hook, not necessarily their shills.
SovCits destroyed by this one simple trick:
I am a PAC.
I am invincible!
Can we revoke his government contracts now?
Why don’t we seize his companies and most of his money?
Give him a billion dollars and a yacht and exile him.
Pussyfooting about something is condoning it. It’s the justice department and they can’t make a binary yes/no conclusion on the legality of this? “We’re warning you that you may get in trouble” is a green light to continue, they said it themselves, it’s merely questionable, and Elon Musk has infinite resources to have a legal team spin it all back on the DOJ
I wish what they’d say is, “we will prosecute this and a jury will decide.”
Can you make an argument that it’s illegal? Chapter and verse, what’s the law being violated?
He holding a lottery for petition signers. A first-year law student could fight this.
I’d seriously like to hear from you guys as to the violation here. May be some angle I don’t know about.
Okay, I’ll make an argument. Here’s the law in question per another Lemmy user down below, seen it in several threads already:
52 U.S.C. 10307©: “Whoever knowingly or willfully gives false information as to his name, address or period of residence in the voting district for the purpose of establishing his eligibility to register or vote, or conspires with another individual for the purpose of encouraging his false registration to vote or illegal voting, or pays or offers to pay or accepts payment either for registration to vote or for voting shall be fined not more than $10,000 or imprisoned not more than five years, or both…”
Bold emphasis mine.
Now, if this were just a lottery set up by Elon Musk for people who sign a petition, that’d be one thing, but this petition has prerequisites aside from just signing your name on the petition. First of all, it’s only for people who live in Pennsylvania. Second, you are only eligible to enter if you yourself register to vote or refer someone else in a battleground state to register to vote via a link as their sponsor.
The statute above specifically states that both offers to pay or accepted payments in exchange for registering to vote is prohibited. So not only might Elon Musk be in trouble for offering the financial incentive, so too is anyone who accepted the reward money as a result of their participation. Musk is trying to get around this by making it a random draw, but the fact that they are only eligible when they meet the specific requirement of someone somewhere registering to vote, that should be cause for concern. It’s not a totally clear cut violation of the law, but it’s quite clearly against the spirit of the law which wants to discourage people from using financial incentives like the one Musk is offering to compel people to vote or register to vote.
shall be fined not more than $10,000
Ahh… the cost of doing business.
… or imprisoned not more than 5 years …
That said, your point isn’t wrong. $10,000 is nothing in this context. Criminal fines should be in direct proportion to a person’s income. Also, statutes, when they mention monetary value, should peg that value to invlation, income, or some other metric that scales with time. We have SOOOOO many laws on the books that use ridiculous numbers by modern standards but were reasonable at the time they were enacted.
We have SOOOOO many laws on the books that use ridiculous numbers by modern standards
I think the most egregious ones are thresholds for felony theft. A lot of states haven’t adjusted the thresholds in many decades. New Jersey for example, theft of something valued 200-500 bucks is a class 4 felony and 500-75000 is a class 3.
So like, in that particular case, someone gets in a heated argument with their roommate who owes them money, takes their Playstation 5 as collateral, they might face the same charges as someone who breaks into a construction site and steals an entire trailer full of power tools
I know, I rolled my eyes at that part too.
I hope the judge presiding would realize that fining the richest man in the world $10,000 would be like fining me one cent for a parking ticket and expecting me to have learned my lesson. Jail time should absolutely be on the table all things considered.
No lawyer, but so often you’ll see a judge discuss the intent of the law vs. the letter of the law and make judgement on that, sometimes helping to change the law in question. Here we have a case where the argument is that he isn’t paying someone to vote a certain way or even to vote, so it’s not technically breaking existing law. But we all see what’s going on, so the intent is clear.
Nothing will happen to him mainly because of him being untouchable, plus the time frame. This just needs to serve as a lesson to act on for the future and get the laws caught up with the times, where absolutely the rich and powerful are influencing political direction in so many ways, and have been for a long time. It needs to stop.
It’s illegal to offer someone something of value, which explicitly includes lottery entries, in exchange for their being registered to vote.
No idea why there’s a “may be” about any of this.
Could that depend on state law, since states control the actual election processes? I would think if it was universally written that clear then actual justice officials would be saying so.
I wish I had the statute at hand. Maybe I saw it on a Glenn Kirschner video? I’ll try and look it up later, but I know for sure it is written down somewhere.
What gets me is how even if there isn’t a hard law, the response should be to cease the activities because they are such a gray area, not this vague “oh gee, this might be a problem maybe”.
Found it.
https://electionlawblog.org/?p=146397
52 U.S.C. 10307©: “Whoever knowingly or willfully gives false information as to his name, address or period of residence in the voting district for the purpose of establishing his eligibility to register or vote, or conspires with another individual for the purpose of encouraging his false registration to vote or illegal voting, or pays or offers to pay or accepts payment either for registration to vote or for voting shall be fined not more than $10,000 or imprisoned not more than five years, or both…”
DOJ Election Crimes Manual at 44: “The bribe may be anything having monetary value, including cash, liquor, lottery chances, and welfare benefits such as food stamps. Garcia, 719 F.2d at 102. However, offering free rides to the polls or providing employees paid leave while they vote are not prohibited. United States v. Lewin, 467 F.2d 1132, 1136 (7th Cir. 1972). Such things are given to make it easier for people to vote, not to induce them to do so. This distinction is important. For an offer or a payment to violate Section 10307©, it must have been intended to induce or reward the voter for engaging in one or more acts necessary to cast a ballot.… Moreover, payments made for some purpose other than to induce or reward voting activity, such as remuneration for campaign work, do not violate this statute. See United States v. Canales 744 F.2d 413, 423 (5th Cir. 1984) (upholding conviction because jury justified in inferring that payments were for voting, not campaign work). Similarly, Section 10307© does not apply to payments made to signature-gatherers for voter registrations such individuals may obtain. However, such payments become actionable under Section 10307© if they are shared with the person being registered.”
You know what his loophole is? He’s not offering money TO vote or GET registered, he’s just making the terms of the lottery be that you have to BE registered. Again, it’s obvious, but by the letter I think it avoids this.
May be? Are they not sure? Aren’t they the guys who should know for sure?
Elon’s banking on it not mattering in 3 months.
People joke about strongly worded letters…
And if Elmo does it again, he’ll get an even stronger warning.
It must be nice to live a consequence-free life.
Investigations take time.
Don’t be surprised if Elon is already under investigation in the background
Usually, if Musk’s PAC does not comply, the DOJ initiates an investigation phase. Gets a court order to preserve all documents and xoorspondence, etc.
And we’ve seen that the DOJ is a real stand-up operation the last 8 years, haven’t we
Don’t know. Ask Jack Smith.
One unspoiled egg in a factory of spoiled eggs doesn’t instill in me much hope.
Another source:
https://politicalwire.com/2024/10/23/elon-musk-got-warning-letter-for-lottery-scheme/(not that it adds any further info)
Edited source and title to CNN
‘may’ be?. try is
May? How is it not a bribe?
Citizens United and SpeechNow opened the door to this.
Because it’s a lottery you enter when signing a petition. That’s it.
That’s still a bribe. You get no chance at all of you don’t sign.
If I did this they’d be beating me with a rubber hose on my front lawn. Why’s he get a “warning”?
(I know why)
He knows. Fucking do something about it
If I’m understanding correctly, this sounds like lip service and nothing more than a side-eye glare from the DOJ while muttering quietly, “Don’t. Stop. That’s ‘illegal’” in Musk’s general direction.
They have as many teeth as the SEC has had when it comes to Musk’s “AlLEdgEd” shenanigans.
🙄 🤦♂️
So, here’s my test: someone without his clout do the exact same thing except with $100. If that person gets charged but Musk doesn’t, that tells you exactly why Musk will get away with it.
As it should!
