I mean, she’s right. It’s not someone’s fault when they get brainwashed, it’s an environmental thing. If all you hear is xyz, then believing xyz is pretty reasonable. In our system, it becomes the job of the engaged citizenry to remedy this, which is doable.
I think understanding how they got that way is critical to the response to how to counter it. Are we trying to mitigate their damage, or are we trying to convince them to stop? After Tuesday, the priorities change, but right now it’s worth trying to win hearts and minds.
It is still very much their fault. Because, as the various internet atheists (self included) love to point out: Most of their hate and bigotry is outright against the bible. So even in their echo chambers they had opportunities to think for themselves.
And yes, win hearts and minds. Hell, keep doing that after Tuesday because we are definitely looking at chaos for months. But NEVER excuse the hatred and bigotry. They are wrong. Their being wrong has actively stolen basic human rights from roughly half the country and their being wrong is working to steal human rights from even more people.
You have to keep in mind, conservativism is not an ideology. It’s a palatable version of narcissism that allows “conservatives” to defend whatever positions they happen to like with no ties to consistency or rationality.
There are no fundamentally conservative beliefs, just people who define their beliefs based on who they are and where they are standing at any given time. Low taxes for me, high for thee. Government spending on me, none for thee. Deregulation for me, suffocating anti-competitive requirements for thee. My God is good and true, your God is evil or nonsense. Conservatives get abortions when they want them. Conservatives illegally emigrate when it is convenient. Conservatives will say or do anything they believe will help them, and will attack anyone they perceive to be a threat. That’s all the explanation there is. They feel no need to excuse their abhorrent values, because they are justified by their own identity.
I am right because I am good because I exist and want to be right and good. If I am wrong, it is a temporary oversight which does not require that I re-evaluate my worldview. Everyone makes mistakes, and I am a good person for recognizing it.
The strategy for dealing with a conservative is the same as a narcissist. You cannot convince a narcissist that they are wrong. You can convince a narcissist that you are on their side, and that helping you helps them. This will only last as long as you are on their side.
Or you can ignore a narcissist’s arguments and simply oppose their efforts. You can keep them from obtaining more power, and prevent them from exerting any influence on your life. Set boundaries, hold them accountable, concede no ground, accept no bullshit.
Conservativism is not a political ideology, it is an innate defect of an immature mind. Many people grow out of it, but far too many never do. Conservatives are taught at a young age that they don’t have to become a better person, as long as they join the good team.
I am just going to say this one more time because I am quite certain you aren’t reading anything:
Explanation, not excuse.
What you listed is an explanation. That explains WHY people are assholes. That does not excuse them being an asshole. And it is incredibly important to understand that.
Because excusing the pure evil of what a “side of the aisle” is doing in favor of “coming together”? That is how we got into this fucking mess. We refused to actually codify abortion rights because we didn’t want to anger people and, as a result, roughly half the country lost basic human rights while they were eating lunch. We try to compromise on people’s fundamental right to exist which leads to the stupidity of “I guess I’ll only breathe every other day?”
Understand where people came from. Do not excuse the fucking evil they did. Because if the only way they will oppose outright fucking evil is if you give them a handy? Fuck 'em. They are monsters who will never actually concede and just want to force you to concede.
Because
Low taxes for me, high for thee. Government spending on me, none for thee. Deregulation for me, suffocating anti-competitive requirements for thee
sounds like an evil mother fucker to me. And you yourself acknowledge
You can convince a narcissist that you are on their side, and that helping you helps them. This will only last as long as you are on their side.
Any compromise with them is just enabling them. Explain to them why they are wrong. Point out what the magats are doing to them. But fuck any concessions. We did that for decades and just lose and lose and lose.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m saying you’re trying to push molasses up a sandy hill. Don’t waste your time telling them why they’re wrong, or that they’re wrong. Conservatives aren’t capable of changing the way they think. You can choose to try to work with a conservative by making them see how helping you helps them, or you can work without them. You win by avoiding them entirely, because if they can’t beat you, it’s enough for them to obstruct your progress.
No, not necessarily. A person is not responsible for traumas inflicted on them, nor the physiological fear-based adaptations that creates in their bodies. While we can blame them for not seeking treatment, we then have to consider our health care system.
It’s not apologia to understand something. Understanding things allows us better opportunity to address root causes. If simply killing/imprisoning/suppressing them all worked, the AfD would not be an issue in Germany after WW2 and post-war reconstruction.
The AfD only exists and has power now because it was explicitly allowed to continue existing due to a (bullshit) court ruling that it wasn’t big enough at the time to constitute a threat. Your own example doesn’t even make sense because the AfD got where it is now exactly because they weren’t stamped out when they should’ve been.
The court order would have never been brought forward if the ideology had been successfully stamped out post-war. Ultimately, an idea cannot be forcibly destroyed though, only driven into hiding where it can continue to fester underground and through back-channels, as the John Birch Society did here in the States.
This is why addressing the root socioeconomic and individual psychological causes becomes necessary. While most people like to focus on one or the other, I think both are necessary.
Clever trying to strawman the argument into “suppressing Nazism actually works forever and never needs to be reapplied.” from “suppressing Nazism works”. Part of the ongoing post-war stamping out of Nazism is exactly the kind of thing that court failed to uphold. Again, your example makes no sense at all because the AfD should have been stamped out under the law but was given a ludicrous exception. Had it been dissolved when it was small, Germany would not be in this predicament.
It’s not a strawman, I think you mean shifting a goalpost. It’s not that either though, since my position has remained completely consistent. I’m arguing it does not work, the problem of right wing authoritarianism was never actually addressed. It was driven underground, it was hidden, it’s symptoms were masked as people went around thinking “no problems here!”. This was a grave error. From its position underground, it was only a matter of time before it at some point rose threaten society again.
The solution you advocate for requires a neverending process of rolling the dice, hoping no Nazi infiltration into courts or higher government has happened. This does not work, it is not a viable long-term solution. A long term solution must take both a societal and medical perspective into account to understand how a person actually becomes a Nazi.
The medical part is largely under-discussed, it’s only recently that physiological changes in the brain differentiating these sorts of conservatives are becoming more recognized, and explaining why an ideology of fear is so much more effective on them than you or I.
It is someone’s fault when they are active participants in their brainwashing and willfully ignoring the numerous people bringing them tidings from objective reality. The citizenry has been doing work trying to reprogram these cultists for years now, it is having little effect.
I disagree. Many people are brought out, you can very commonly find people’s personal accounts. The problem is they’re continuously recruiting as well, and do overwhelmingly well particularly with young male gamers who are disproportionately active online.
We can’t forget that every year, millions of people turn 18. Right now, four whole years worth of them don’t really personally remember a lot about the Trump presidency, they were doing the whole growing up thing.
I do agree that people do bear responsibility when they seek it out. I don’t think that’s most though, for most its the default from their local culture that they need education and critical thinking to save them from. Much like religion in general, if nobody helps you break free with independent ideas and critical thinking skills, you simply won’t. It’s a default of sorts, depending on the overall environment you were reared in.
I’m torn on that one. We’re all exposed to the same bullshit but we’re repulsed by it and stop/avoid consuming that propaganda. Those that are in MAGA choose to keep consuming that propaganda. I tried to get my father to stop watching primetime fox news (read: 1984s two minutes hate) in favor of the actual journalist on Fox (it was Shepard Smith at the time) and his response was “no way, that guy is too opinionated. Sean Hannity (the literal opinion guy that has OPINION on the screen…) tells it like it is.”
We’re all exposed to tons and tons of propaganda, there are literally no trustworthy corporate media sources and so we choose to abstain, or pick a more tepid source. A very large portion of Magoos love the hate. :(
That’s because you’re in possession of a certain set of skills and experiences that gives you the room to exercise critical thinking.
These are acquirable, though, you were not born with them. If someone has not had an equivalent opportunity to acquire your skills, they would lack this ability. Let’s not forget that we have a fairly strong cultural thrust towards anti-intellectualism in certain regions of the country. Our experiences are not all equal, and it has a great deal to do with our specific communities.
To an extent I agree, everyone definitely is not the same and we absolutely should have compassion for those that are being manipulated, but on the other hand just as a personal anecdote I have a friend who has excelled much further than I have having gone through college and a masters program, while I’m “uneducated” and stuck working in a factory and he’s still MAGA.
It’s kind of funny in a way, if you took me on paper and him on paper you’d assume he’s the lefty and I’m the right wing asshat lol
Conspiracy theories, which underpin so many fascist movements, are fun, is part of the problem.
What’s more pleasant, living in a harsh and difficult reality where you’re a small fry and real change is hard and life is mostly dull, or living in a dream world where all your problems are “their” fault and you can live with an emotional sense of superiority?
You can be an egalitarian, having to be equal with everyone, or you can be better than some people. Then, remembering that you can always just avoid thinking about contradictory evidence, try to objectively decide which you might prefer. Being an equal, or being a superior? I mean, does it matter what’s true? Does it make a difference in your day to day life if black and white people actually are fundamentally equal, if you don’t really have to treat them that way?
Imo, this is how it gets the smart people. Running theory anyway.
I mean, she’s right. It’s not someone’s fault when they get brainwashed, it’s an environmental thing. If all you hear is xyz, then believing xyz is pretty reasonable. In our system, it becomes the job of the engaged citizenry to remedy this, which is doable.
Being brainwashed and indoctrinated is an explanation, not an excuse.
They are still causing harm and they are still at fault for that. We can just understand how they got that way.
Yeah, just because “hurt people hurt people” is true doesn’t mean it’s okay for them to hurt people.
I think understanding how they got that way is critical to the response to how to counter it. Are we trying to mitigate their damage, or are we trying to convince them to stop? After Tuesday, the priorities change, but right now it’s worth trying to win hearts and minds.
Yes. Explanation, not excuse.
It is still very much their fault. Because, as the various internet atheists (self included) love to point out: Most of their hate and bigotry is outright against the bible. So even in their echo chambers they had opportunities to think for themselves.
And yes, win hearts and minds. Hell, keep doing that after Tuesday because we are definitely looking at chaos for months. But NEVER excuse the hatred and bigotry. They are wrong. Their being wrong has actively stolen basic human rights from roughly half the country and their being wrong is working to steal human rights from even more people.
You have to keep in mind, conservativism is not an ideology. It’s a palatable version of narcissism that allows “conservatives” to defend whatever positions they happen to like with no ties to consistency or rationality.
There are no fundamentally conservative beliefs, just people who define their beliefs based on who they are and where they are standing at any given time. Low taxes for me, high for thee. Government spending on me, none for thee. Deregulation for me, suffocating anti-competitive requirements for thee. My God is good and true, your God is evil or nonsense. Conservatives get abortions when they want them. Conservatives illegally emigrate when it is convenient. Conservatives will say or do anything they believe will help them, and will attack anyone they perceive to be a threat. That’s all the explanation there is. They feel no need to excuse their abhorrent values, because they are justified by their own identity.
I am right because I am good because I exist and want to be right and good. If I am wrong, it is a temporary oversight which does not require that I re-evaluate my worldview. Everyone makes mistakes, and I am a good person for recognizing it.
The strategy for dealing with a conservative is the same as a narcissist. You cannot convince a narcissist that they are wrong. You can convince a narcissist that you are on their side, and that helping you helps them. This will only last as long as you are on their side.
Or you can ignore a narcissist’s arguments and simply oppose their efforts. You can keep them from obtaining more power, and prevent them from exerting any influence on your life. Set boundaries, hold them accountable, concede no ground, accept no bullshit.
Conservativism is not a political ideology, it is an innate defect of an immature mind. Many people grow out of it, but far too many never do. Conservatives are taught at a young age that they don’t have to become a better person, as long as they join the good team.
I am just going to say this one more time because I am quite certain you aren’t reading anything:
Explanation, not excuse.
What you listed is an explanation. That explains WHY people are assholes. That does not excuse them being an asshole. And it is incredibly important to understand that.
Because excusing the pure evil of what a “side of the aisle” is doing in favor of “coming together”? That is how we got into this fucking mess. We refused to actually codify abortion rights because we didn’t want to anger people and, as a result, roughly half the country lost basic human rights while they were eating lunch. We try to compromise on people’s fundamental right to exist which leads to the stupidity of “I guess I’ll only breathe every other day?”
Understand where people came from. Do not excuse the fucking evil they did. Because if the only way they will oppose outright fucking evil is if you give them a handy? Fuck 'em. They are monsters who will never actually concede and just want to force you to concede.
Because
sounds like an evil mother fucker to me. And you yourself acknowledge
Any compromise with them is just enabling them. Explain to them why they are wrong. Point out what the magats are doing to them. But fuck any concessions. We did that for decades and just lose and lose and lose.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m saying you’re trying to push molasses up a sandy hill. Don’t waste your time telling them why they’re wrong, or that they’re wrong. Conservatives aren’t capable of changing the way they think. You can choose to try to work with a conservative by making them see how helping you helps them, or you can work without them. You win by avoiding them entirely, because if they can’t beat you, it’s enough for them to obstruct your progress.
deleted by creator
It is absolutely a grown voting age persons fault that they decided to become a Nazi because their father is a Nazi
No, not necessarily. A person is not responsible for traumas inflicted on them, nor the physiological fear-based adaptations that creates in their bodies. While we can blame them for not seeking treatment, we then have to consider our health care system.
Removed by mod
It’s not apologia to understand something. Understanding things allows us better opportunity to address root causes. If simply killing/imprisoning/suppressing them all worked, the AfD would not be an issue in Germany after WW2 and post-war reconstruction.
The AfD only exists and has power now because it was explicitly allowed to continue existing due to a (bullshit) court ruling that it wasn’t big enough at the time to constitute a threat. Your own example doesn’t even make sense because the AfD got where it is now exactly because they weren’t stamped out when they should’ve been.
The court order would have never been brought forward if the ideology had been successfully stamped out post-war. Ultimately, an idea cannot be forcibly destroyed though, only driven into hiding where it can continue to fester underground and through back-channels, as the John Birch Society did here in the States.
This is why addressing the root socioeconomic and individual psychological causes becomes necessary. While most people like to focus on one or the other, I think both are necessary.
edit for grammar
Clever trying to strawman the argument into “suppressing Nazism actually works forever and never needs to be reapplied.” from “suppressing Nazism works”. Part of the ongoing post-war stamping out of Nazism is exactly the kind of thing that court failed to uphold. Again, your example makes no sense at all because the AfD should have been stamped out under the law but was given a ludicrous exception. Had it been dissolved when it was small, Germany would not be in this predicament.
It’s not a strawman, I think you mean shifting a goalpost. It’s not that either though, since my position has remained completely consistent. I’m arguing it does not work, the problem of right wing authoritarianism was never actually addressed. It was driven underground, it was hidden, it’s symptoms were masked as people went around thinking “no problems here!”. This was a grave error. From its position underground, it was only a matter of time before it at some point rose threaten society again.
The solution you advocate for requires a neverending process of rolling the dice, hoping no Nazi infiltration into courts or higher government has happened. This does not work, it is not a viable long-term solution. A long term solution must take both a societal and medical perspective into account to understand how a person actually becomes a Nazi.
The medical part is largely under-discussed, it’s only recently that physiological changes in the brain differentiating these sorts of conservatives are becoming more recognized, and explaining why an ideology of fear is so much more effective on them than you or I.
It is someone’s fault when they are active participants in their brainwashing and willfully ignoring the numerous people bringing them tidings from objective reality. The citizenry has been doing work trying to reprogram these cultists for years now, it is having little effect.
I disagree. Many people are brought out, you can very commonly find people’s personal accounts. The problem is they’re continuously recruiting as well, and do overwhelmingly well particularly with young male gamers who are disproportionately active online.
We can’t forget that every year, millions of people turn 18. Right now, four whole years worth of them don’t really personally remember a lot about the Trump presidency, they were doing the whole growing up thing.
I do agree that people do bear responsibility when they seek it out. I don’t think that’s most though, for most its the default from their local culture that they need education and critical thinking to save them from. Much like religion in general, if nobody helps you break free with independent ideas and critical thinking skills, you simply won’t. It’s a default of sorts, depending on the overall environment you were reared in.
I’m torn on that one. We’re all exposed to the same bullshit but we’re repulsed by it and stop/avoid consuming that propaganda. Those that are in MAGA choose to keep consuming that propaganda. I tried to get my father to stop watching primetime fox news (read: 1984s two minutes hate) in favor of the actual journalist on Fox (it was Shepard Smith at the time) and his response was “no way, that guy is too opinionated. Sean Hannity (the literal opinion guy that has OPINION on the screen…) tells it like it is.”
We’re all exposed to tons and tons of propaganda, there are literally no trustworthy corporate media sources and so we choose to abstain, or pick a more tepid source. A very large portion of Magoos love the hate. :(
That’s because you’re in possession of a certain set of skills and experiences that gives you the room to exercise critical thinking.
These are acquirable, though, you were not born with them. If someone has not had an equivalent opportunity to acquire your skills, they would lack this ability. Let’s not forget that we have a fairly strong cultural thrust towards anti-intellectualism in certain regions of the country. Our experiences are not all equal, and it has a great deal to do with our specific communities.
To an extent I agree, everyone definitely is not the same and we absolutely should have compassion for those that are being manipulated, but on the other hand just as a personal anecdote I have a friend who has excelled much further than I have having gone through college and a masters program, while I’m “uneducated” and stuck working in a factory and he’s still MAGA.
It’s kind of funny in a way, if you took me on paper and him on paper you’d assume he’s the lefty and I’m the right wing asshat lol
Conspiracy theories, which underpin so many fascist movements, are fun, is part of the problem.
What’s more pleasant, living in a harsh and difficult reality where you’re a small fry and real change is hard and life is mostly dull, or living in a dream world where all your problems are “their” fault and you can live with an emotional sense of superiority?
You can be an egalitarian, having to be equal with everyone, or you can be better than some people. Then, remembering that you can always just avoid thinking about contradictory evidence, try to objectively decide which you might prefer. Being an equal, or being a superior? I mean, does it matter what’s true? Does it make a difference in your day to day life if black and white people actually are fundamentally equal, if you don’t really have to treat them that way?
Imo, this is how it gets the smart people. Running theory anyway.