Because school is entirely geared towards parents. Nothing about school is actually good for the people going through it, but the system doesn’t actually care about them, and isn’t designed to.
There’s nothing fundamentally wrong with having a classroom of students being taught a curriculum. It’s effective even if it’s inefficient. The execution is lacking for sure, but to suggest that none of it is good for students is a little dramatic.
Isn’t that about what I said? Of course the idea of children learning important topics in an organized fashion is decent. The objections I have are the forced social structures, mandatory attendance at risk of school or legal punishment, limited ability to specialize in topics or pick a curriculum, rigid schedules all day enforced with various punishments or humiliation including strict control of access to bathrooms, and in general the prison-like obsession with routines and schedules.
I’d add the fact that not everyone learns the same way, and while some people do well with lectures and note-taking, others would be better reading books alone, and others would be better in a discussion format. My experiences varied wildly. One major issue for me was that the strict scheduling and punitive obsessions didn’t work well with what was going on with my health and family life, but there’s little room for that. Personally I would have done much better to have not attended school at all. Each year was pretty much an excruciating review of things I learned from books 2 years before, combined with extensive peer and administration torture.
My high school had block scheduling, we’d have 2 90 minute classes in the morning, then “I Block” in the middle of the day which was essentially our homeroom, then 2 more classes in the afternoon.
When they first started it, I block was a pretty freeform thing, you had to check in with your homeroom teacher, but could then go pretty much anywhere in the school and do whatever, go see your other teachers to get some help or just hang out in their room, go to the library, etc.
They slowly cracked down on that, first one day a week you had to be in your homeroom for SSR (Sustained Silent Reading, you weren’t allowed to do homework or anything else, you had to sit there reading silently) and they slowly cut down on reasons you were allowed to be out of your homeroom room during I block without a note or hall pass to the point that when I graduated they were making announcements at the beginning of I block that anyone caught in the halls without a hall pass would be written up for, and I vividly remember this specific wording, “defiance and insubordination”
What the actual fuck was that shit? That feels like wording they would use in an actual prison or in the military or something?
We were a relatively safe, solidly middle class suburban district, we didn’t have rampant gang issues, violence, drug use, anything of the sort, the odd troublemaker or prblem child sure, but overall we pretty much kept ourselves in line, there wasn’t any need to crack the whip on us.
strict control of access to bathrooms, and in general the prison-like obsession with routines and schedules
I’d argue that this is one of the only real life situations that school prepares people for: you’re very likely to be stuck living on someone else’s schedule for the vast majority of your life. Your employer decides what time you have to be there and what time you’re allowed to leave; when you get a break; when you can use the bathroom; when you’re allowed to take a vacation. Sick for more than a day or two? Better burn some cash and get a doctor’s note. Need to go to a funeral? Immediate family only, company policy, sorry buddy.
They still do this. The middle school I just took my daughter out of (she was being bullied by half the school) had a maximum number of bathroom breaks per child per semester. I told my daughter that if she ran out of breaks, she should tell the teacher I either do it in the bathroom or right here on the floor. You pick.
Thank you. She’s not better yet, but this was like 2 weeks ago. We’ve put her in online schooling for now. We might try sending her to another middle school next semester. The online school is run through the school corporation, but it’s too hard for her to do by herself. She’s lucky I’m on FMLA right now. But it’s ridiculous, they bought the cheapest education package possible from whatever corporation and all the English texts are public domain 19th century texts. 7th grade is way too young to be able to read an O. Henry story about a safecracker with an ironic twist ending or an H. H. Munro story about English Edwardian manners and understand what the fuck is going on. So basically I have to sit with her, read the text for her because she can’t figure out how a lot of the words are pronounced, while we stop every few sentences so I can explain to her what it means. We’ve looked up the texts and most of them are at least a 10th grade level. The English teacher they have assigned to this program has been very unhelpful and not very responsive.
I feel sort of trapped, because what if she has the same issues in the next middle school? She is very independent in terms of not conforming with the other kids (she was the only one who wore punky clothes and jewelry) and she does have psychological issues that make it harder and make her act less like the other kids, especially when she gets stressed and has to let it out, which is basically middle school code for ‘bully this child.’ The entire school called her a furry because she wore studded leather collars. To her credit, she kept wearing them despite that bullying, but eventually we got her up and ready for school one day and she completely broke down and said there was no way she could face another day of it. What’s especially awful is that while every kid in the school piles on her, every adult she meets thinks she’s awesome, although them telling her so isn’t enough for her self-esteem.
We did less structured and ultimately badly-done online schooling during COVID. It was bad in other ways, but more importantly, I don’t know how long we can survive on a single income again and that’s what will have to happen if we keep her in online school.
The control of bathrooms is about vandalism and vaping. Vapes are endemic in public schools. Students will also try to rip out sinks, cram things in toilets - also a convenient place for gang initiations. It’s not about being cruel, it’s about making sure that the hallway isn’t flooded with piss and shit because these kids are out of control.
Math and literacy are both fundamental and essential tools for a self sufficient adult. You don’t need to remember how to to apply the quadratic theorem or complete the square outside of high school for most jobs. You do need to remember how to read and basic concepts like compound interest or multiplication. People who don’t are ill prepared for life, not just adulthood.
Given a bunch of middle school and high school kids have been pushed forward in the system (past pandemic) with very shaky understanding of these very crucial subjects, I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. The education system in the US really doesn’t seem to care about making independent and intellectually curious adults. It begins in elementary but is a failure to proceed beyond that.
Adults also need a fundamental understanding of more advanced maths like statistics so they’re not conned by people who lie with statistics. And WOW, is there ever a ton of that going on these days.
I meant sources showing how “school is entirely geared towards parents” and how “the system doesn’t actually care about them [children], and isn’t designed to”
I… did? I mean, I can give you more of my pro tooth reading list but those are the ones that would explain that particular point. I’m not sure what else you’re looking for.
I think so. And if Holt doesn’t go into that part of the history then John Taylor Gatto does. Wanna join our book club? You have me wanting to reread all of these.
Because school is entirely geared towards parents. Nothing about school is actually good for the people going through it, but the system doesn’t actually care about them, and isn’t designed to.
Nothing? I’d argue that learning mathematics is good for people going through school but then again I’m no expert in education.
It’s not the concept, it’s the execution.
There’s nothing fundamentally wrong with having a classroom of students being taught a curriculum. It’s effective even if it’s inefficient. The execution is lacking for sure, but to suggest that none of it is good for students is a little dramatic.
Isn’t that about what I said? Of course the idea of children learning important topics in an organized fashion is decent. The objections I have are the forced social structures, mandatory attendance at risk of school or legal punishment, limited ability to specialize in topics or pick a curriculum, rigid schedules all day enforced with various punishments or humiliation including strict control of access to bathrooms, and in general the prison-like obsession with routines and schedules.
I’d add the fact that not everyone learns the same way, and while some people do well with lectures and note-taking, others would be better reading books alone, and others would be better in a discussion format. My experiences varied wildly. One major issue for me was that the strict scheduling and punitive obsessions didn’t work well with what was going on with my health and family life, but there’s little room for that. Personally I would have done much better to have not attended school at all. Each year was pretty much an excruciating review of things I learned from books 2 years before, combined with extensive peer and administration torture.
My high school had block scheduling, we’d have 2 90 minute classes in the morning, then “I Block” in the middle of the day which was essentially our homeroom, then 2 more classes in the afternoon.
When they first started it, I block was a pretty freeform thing, you had to check in with your homeroom teacher, but could then go pretty much anywhere in the school and do whatever, go see your other teachers to get some help or just hang out in their room, go to the library, etc.
They slowly cracked down on that, first one day a week you had to be in your homeroom for SSR (Sustained Silent Reading, you weren’t allowed to do homework or anything else, you had to sit there reading silently) and they slowly cut down on reasons you were allowed to be out of your homeroom room during I block without a note or hall pass to the point that when I graduated they were making announcements at the beginning of I block that anyone caught in the halls without a hall pass would be written up for, and I vividly remember this specific wording, “defiance and insubordination”
What the actual fuck was that shit? That feels like wording they would use in an actual prison or in the military or something?
We were a relatively safe, solidly middle class suburban district, we didn’t have rampant gang issues, violence, drug use, anything of the sort, the odd troublemaker or prblem child sure, but overall we pretty much kept ourselves in line, there wasn’t any need to crack the whip on us.
I’d argue that this is one of the only real life situations that school prepares people for: you’re very likely to be stuck living on someone else’s schedule for the vast majority of your life. Your employer decides what time you have to be there and what time you’re allowed to leave; when you get a break; when you can use the bathroom; when you’re allowed to take a vacation. Sick for more than a day or two? Better burn some cash and get a doctor’s note. Need to go to a funeral? Immediate family only, company policy, sorry buddy.
That’s the thing: schooling is set up to condition people for fucked up jobs with corporations, which I guess is a realistic plan.
youre being a bit hyperbolic with the ‘nothing’, no reason to double down
they’re not even the person who said that. Neither of squiblet’s posts even contains the word “nothing”. Drink some coffee
They still do this. The middle school I just took my daughter out of (she was being bullied by half the school) had a maximum number of bathroom breaks per child per semester. I told my daughter that if she ran out of breaks, she should tell the teacher I either do it in the bathroom or right here on the floor. You pick.
Well, I hope your daughter is doing well. You seem pretty savvy, maybe home school her? Sorry if that’s not a feasible suggestion.
Anyway, peeing on a teacher is not a good move. Vomiting on a non-reasonable teacher is a power move.
Thank you. She’s not better yet, but this was like 2 weeks ago. We’ve put her in online schooling for now. We might try sending her to another middle school next semester. The online school is run through the school corporation, but it’s too hard for her to do by herself. She’s lucky I’m on FMLA right now. But it’s ridiculous, they bought the cheapest education package possible from whatever corporation and all the English texts are public domain 19th century texts. 7th grade is way too young to be able to read an O. Henry story about a safecracker with an ironic twist ending or an H. H. Munro story about English Edwardian manners and understand what the fuck is going on. So basically I have to sit with her, read the text for her because she can’t figure out how a lot of the words are pronounced, while we stop every few sentences so I can explain to her what it means. We’ve looked up the texts and most of them are at least a 10th grade level. The English teacher they have assigned to this program has been very unhelpful and not very responsive.
I feel sort of trapped, because what if she has the same issues in the next middle school? She is very independent in terms of not conforming with the other kids (she was the only one who wore punky clothes and jewelry) and she does have psychological issues that make it harder and make her act less like the other kids, especially when she gets stressed and has to let it out, which is basically middle school code for ‘bully this child.’ The entire school called her a furry because she wore studded leather collars. To her credit, she kept wearing them despite that bullying, but eventually we got her up and ready for school one day and she completely broke down and said there was no way she could face another day of it. What’s especially awful is that while every kid in the school piles on her, every adult she meets thinks she’s awesome, although them telling her so isn’t enough for her self-esteem.
We did less structured and ultimately badly-done online schooling during COVID. It was bad in other ways, but more importantly, I don’t know how long we can survive on a single income again and that’s what will have to happen if we keep her in online school.
Sorry, had to vent.
The control of bathrooms is about vandalism and vaping. Vapes are endemic in public schools. Students will also try to rip out sinks, cram things in toilets - also a convenient place for gang initiations. It’s not about being cruel, it’s about making sure that the hallway isn’t flooded with piss and shit because these kids are out of control.
Person saying it is probably a teenager
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Math and literacy are both fundamental and essential tools for a self sufficient adult. You don’t need to remember how to to apply the quadratic theorem or complete the square outside of high school for most jobs. You do need to remember how to read and basic concepts like compound interest or multiplication. People who don’t are ill prepared for life, not just adulthood.
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Given a bunch of middle school and high school kids have been pushed forward in the system (past pandemic) with very shaky understanding of these very crucial subjects, I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. The education system in the US really doesn’t seem to care about making independent and intellectually curious adults. It begins in elementary but is a failure to proceed beyond that.
Adults also need a fundamental understanding of more advanced maths like statistics so they’re not conned by people who lie with statistics. And WOW, is there ever a ton of that going on these days.
It’s not designed to teach mathematics particularly well
Source?
John Caldwell Holt, either “Instead of Education” or “How Children Fail.” I should reread them; is been a while.
I need to read holt too. maybe we should organize a book club?
That’d be cool. I wonder if there’s a community for that?
we could make one
Then the question becomes how to get other people to see it…
I meant sources showing how “school is entirely geared towards parents” and how “the system doesn’t actually care about them [children], and isn’t designed to”
I… did? I mean, I can give you more of my pro tooth reading list but those are the ones that would explain that particular point. I’m not sure what else you’re looking for.
Your sources may show how the system is more beneficial for parents but does it show proof that it was designed that way?
I think so. And if Holt doesn’t go into that part of the history then John Taylor Gatto does. Wanna join our book club? You have me wanting to reread all of these.
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honestly abolish school. I can’t imagine subjecting my hypothetical child to what I went through.
Exactly my feeling. I wouldn’t put somebody I hate through that; why the fuck would I do it to someone I love?
I wouldn’t go so far as to abolish school completely, but things definitely need to change. Kids deserve so much better
here’s one suggestion: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-to-learn/201711/educations-future-what-will-replace-k-12-and-college