As it should be. FUCKING VOTE! And remember, by not voting for Biden, you are voting for Trump whether or not you actually cast a vote. ALL of the Trump supporters WILL show up on the day.
No. You don’t get to tell me that I have to vote for Biden when he’s not doing anything to earn my vote. He’s allowing Israel to carry out a genocide. So he’s not actually less evil than Trump. You’re just upset because Trump’s shitty policies will impact you more than Biden’s shitty policies. Biden has the lower approval ratings than Trump did at this point. He has not earned a second term.
How about the Dems run a candidate who isn’t dog shit? I vote for Dems as a form of harm reduction, but they aren’t reducing harm anymore. So what’s in it for me? Dems haven’t not done anything about the supreme court, student loans, or threats to democracy and they are largely supporting the actions of Israel. If I’m right, and this is a genocide (I am), then voting for anyone who supports it would be an evil act. They’re going to have to make some changes if they want to earn the votes of people who don’t want to see a genocide carried out on our watch with our bombs.
That said, it would be a real problem if Trump won. So if that happens, I hope you’ll be willing to place the blame where it belongs: with the Democrats. They are the ones doing nothing to earn our votes. Biden isn’t even campaigning.
Okay. But Palestine still gonna be fucked. I get that you don’t care if Palestinians die. But I do. So I get to not vote for the guy currently enabling their genocide. “Trump would do it too” so you admit it’s bad? Demand better from your politicians you weakling.
If you think Palestine is still fucked either way then choosing to empowerer Trump makes even less sense. I think it’s a fact that Trump will be far worse for Palestinians than Biden, but even if we assume they will both be just as terrible on this issue, Trump is also terrible on every issue. If your choice is terrible and completely terrible, logically you should go with terrible. The other choice is even worse.
How could trump be worse?what is worse than arming the Israelies while they engage in genocide? Unless you don’t believe that’s what is happening. In which case,you have been misinformed. Genocide is genocide. Why am I the asshole here for not wanting to vote for someone who is enabling a genocide? Why isn’t Biden the asshole for enabling the genocide or not stepping down?
ah, so the single-issue voter. actually it’s not even single-issue, that’s just giving up status quo in order to effectively vote for worse than status quo. that’s called having a narrow view on the world, you know the middle east isn’t the only thing that exists in american politics right? there are still other things to improve on rather than just saying “oh israel-palestine conflict is going to shit either way therefore why even bother, might as well fuck up every other political issue, it’s useless if we can’t have this one win”.
grow up, you’re effectively casting all your friends and loved ones into the flames with your stubbornness, and casting palestinians into the flames considering trump is going to rail way harder against palestine than biden does. it’s not like not voting means no palestinians die, why do you have this delusion that you have blood on your hands if you vote but no blood on your hands if you don’t. it helps nobody and improves nothing except your own ego because you get to say “oh well i didn’t vote for genocide!” even though you practically voted for more genocide.
It’s not my only issue with Biden, but it is my biggest and the fact that it doesn’t even seem to register as a problem for you is very telling. You don’t care about anything that’s happening to anyone outside of the US huh? Your world is that small? Get a grip. We all draw our lines in the sand somewhere and when the line is crossed, that’s usually the thing we’re going to yell about. I think “I can work with you on anything other than genocide related crimes” is pretty fucking lenient, don’t you?
alright then my guy, what does trump do better than biden that makes you want him to win instead? because you seem so happy to give trump an extra vote. what would trump do better outside of the US since that seems to be where your concern lies? how will not voting for biden achieve your goals and make the situation in palestine any better?
you seem to think that voting for biden is “working with him”, which is just plain delusional. that’s completely outside of the scope of general elections. you’re not relevant to biden, or any politicians, he doesn’t know you exist, don’t think of yourself as so important that you think you’re working with them. what you’re doing is casting a vote to lessen future pain.
if biden were the only candidate, if it were a 1 party state and the only person able to run was biden, then yeah i’d agree with you. voting means nothing. but that’s simply not the case. you are genuinely either stupid or evil if you’d rather give your vote for trump rather than swallow your pride and at least vote to maintain some semblance of liberty (at least what’s left of it). a world where democrats lose the election is a world where you won’t even have the right to criticize your president, nor your government’s genocide.
bottom line is by not participating in the 2 party system in the presidential election, you’re not somehow making a morally correct decision that means you have no blood on your hands. you WILL have blood on your hands if republicans win, no matter how much you try to convince yourself that you totally owned those genociders by basically voting for the worse genocider. your view is extremely short-sighted and you care about your own pride more than the rights of LGBT people, black & hispanic people, etc.
If you can’t see how Trump is worse than Biden I don’t know what to say. It should be self evident at this point that a second Trump presidency will be a disaster for the world. As far as Palestine goes, Biden has pissed off Netanyahu and there’s a whole diplomatic row unfolding right now because Biden said there has to be a two state solution and Netanyahu says no. I guess you’re unfamiliar with Trump somehow but based off his previous behavior he would be more likely to help Netanyahu and encourage him to do even worse things. Trump certainly wouldn’t be getting into a public spat where he’s insisting on a Palestinian state, he’s definitely not going to do anything to stop what Israel is doing, or even to discourage them.
Also, the idea that Trump “certainly” wouldn’t get in a public spat when he is, in fact, Donald Trump and public spats are exactly his MO is fucking laughable.
I’m not saying Trump doesn’t get in public spats, just that he wouldn’t get into one with Netanyahu over Palestinian statehood. The idea of Trump arguing with Netanyahu in defense of the rights of Palestinians is absurd on its face.
I don’t believe this “row” with Netanyahu will amount to anything, which I am basing on Biden’s record of always backing Israel every single time. You and I agree about Trump. We’ve clearly come to different conclusions about Biden. I don’t think we are going to get any further in this conversation.
Trump (to black Americans) in 2016: What do you have to lose?
You’re basically just spouting Trump talking points.
Trump would obviously not only support Israel’s position he would sell them more weapons…wouldn’t care at all about the Palestinian human rights angle and he would allow Russia to walk into Ukraine and that’s just the “foreign relations” plan…domestically, he’s planning on setting up concentration camps for the homeless and undocumented.
Not arming the Israeli’s and letting Iran try to start a war it cannot win, which would result in a domino effect of failed middle eastern states, tens of millions of deaths, and tens of millions of war refugees.
Oh but by all means burn the fucking planet down and destroy democracy for 350,000,000 Americans because you want everyone to know how super sad you are over 25,000 avoidable deaths.
Lol it’s really funny this imaginary scenario in that person’s head… Thinking that Israel killing tens of thousands today will somehow prevent future deaths that are impossible for us to predict. If I didn’t know any better, I’d call that IDF bootlicking.
More Palestinians will die under Trump. All he does is kiss dictator ass. Trump is going to let Netanyahu ethnically cleanse the entire Gaza Strip.
I get that you don’t care if Palestinians die. But I do.
You’re a liar. Since this is all you seem to care about, know this, you’re going to have blood on your hands if you refuse to vote. I refuse to let you have your bullshit moral high ground. I’m voting for democracy in this next election. There will be nothing but genocide from here on out if America becomes a fascist dictatorship, both at home and abroad. Millions more people will die if Trump becomes president. If millions of Palestinians dying doesn’t matter to you, then you don’t care about the Palestinians.
Biden won in New Hampshire and he wasn’t even on the ballot. Sounds like he’s going to do fine. I think people will come to their senses about this. Genocide doesn’t justify allowing fascists to take power and do more genocide.
Because its against two people have no name recognition. Its not hard to figure out why no one went out to vote for Williamson or Phillips when most people don’t even know who they are.
Maybe wake up and realize the fascists tricked you into thinking a genocide is taking place when really only 25,000 people have died and the daily death tolls have halved in the last month and have been dropping since after the first two weeks of the war. If it’s a genocide the killing apparatus should become more efficient over time, not less, and certainly not less by half, not with 99% of the alleged target people still alive.
That’s the proportionate equivalent of as starting to limp and fall down when you’re 450 feet into a 26.2 mile marathon.
Vote for the candidate whose election will result in the least amount of genocide. Millions of people dying under Trump is worse than the thousands of people who have died under Biden. If you cared this about the Palestinians, saving millions of lives would be a straightforward math problem.
Bro I don’t care about Palestine that much right now, nothing we can do there, that’s on Israel, Iran and the middle east, you better look in your own fkn back yard because dictatorship is just around the corner while everyone is worried about the next marvel movie and causes they don’t really have any power to effect.
We’ve been selling Israel weapons while they declare exactly what they want to do. What the fuck are you talking about? Biden has gone around Congress twice to sell weapons to Israel. But sure. Nothing we can do. Get fucked.
Palestinians don’t care if Palestinians die. They huddle up around Hamas members and tunnel entrances to die as proud martyrs, human shields for their terrorist captor’s absolutely deranged anti-social and religious beliefs.
It’s very sad that 600,000 to 800,000 people in Gaza ignored the evacuation warnings or were held as voluntary and involuntary human shields by a terrorist organization. The terrorists and their patron state Iran are absolutely psyched that Kentifer got tricked into openly supporting terrorism by these otherwise easily avoidable deaths. Really, it’s very sad that Hamas has no regard for the lives of the people it falsely claims to serve.
The hard right authoritarians of the world support Hamas and call these deaths genocide; Iran, Malaysia, Brazil, Iraq, Syria, etc.
The liberal world order supports Iarael’s right to self defense; America, the EU, NATO, UK, France, Australia, Norway, Austria, Poland, Germany…even Canada.
Think about that and consider whether it not maybe you really have been tricked, why you’re siding with Iran over Canada?
Of course nobody can tell you who you have to vote for.
But regardless of your choice and your reasons, the math of the votes in our stupid system does mean that voting for anybody but Biden, including voting for nobody, helps Trump or his Republican replacement.
If you don’t care about that, that’s fine. Some might argue that you SHOULD care, but that’s a different conversation. The voting decision is a private one that’s yours alone, but understanding how the choices affect the outcome is good for everybody.
I do care about those things. But I also care about Biden not being president for different, equally valid, equally moral, reasons. Also for pettiness sake, he fucking said he’d be a one term president before he ran in 2020 and we should fucking hold him to that but no one fucking remembers it. I cannot bring myself to vote for a man who has said and done the things he had said and done. So if I care about those things as I “should” and if I also care about doing something about the runaway supreme court and not arming a genocidal right wing government (just to name a couple of my objections to Biden’s presidency), who do I vote for? Do I just give Biden another 4 years because the other guy sucks? Even though I know that it means that he will allow a genocide to be carried out and join wars to defend that genocide which will lead to untold deaths?
Like, even in your comment, while you tell me it’s a personal decision, you’re still laying it on a bit thick and its clear what you think I should do with my vote.
Since we’re talking about the general election, I’m looking at it in a pragmatic cause and effect way. We ARE going to get either the R or D nominee at the end of the election. If you literally do not care who gets elected, and you morally can’t throw support behind either, then a third party or non-vote is the right choice for you.
And while I’m not really trying to hide that I would 100% vote against Trump if he’s the nominee, I’m trying to phrase this all in a way that is very neutral. I’ve gone out of my way to not say you’re a fool or that you’re throwing away your vote. Like I said above, if they are literally the same to you, then voting for neither is the correct choice to represent your views.
When it comes to my personal views and voting decision, I’m not a Biden fan, but the difference between the conservative status quo Democrats we’ve been offered lately, and the MAGA controlled Republican Party, is so great in my eyes that I have no question about voting against Trump regardless of how exciting or lame the Democrat is. This isn’t how I want it to be. The two party death grip is the result of how our elections are structured. Changing that system is the dream, but we need the two parties to implement it, so yeah.
I feel like the folks in the good timeline got Bernie in 2016 and saw some of the benefits people in other developed countries enjoy.
Do I just give Biden another 4 years because the other guy sucks?
Yes. The choice is one or the other so you pick the least bad option. You’re not voting on whether or not to do a genocide, that’s not what this election is deciding. If you genuinely care about the Supreme Court, it’s fucked up because of Trump and if he wins he will stack it even further. And do you really think Trump is going to sell fewer weapons to murderous right wing governments than Biden will? Again, the choice is one or the other so you either vote for Biden or you are serving to empower Trump. You don’t have to love Biden or feel good about voting for him, but please recognize that an even worse scenario will unfold if Trump wins.
No. That is a false dichotomy, as I have said to literally everyone else who has tried to use that argument. There are other options here. The DNC’s and/or Joe Biden’s unwillingness to explore those options doesn’t make them not options. It just means we need to push them harder. Your unwillingness to do so does not mean that the options don’t exist. I am not required to subscribe to your way of viewing politics.
We live in a two party system. There are two candidates who have a real chance to win the presidential election. This has been true for the entire history of US politics. This is not a way of viewing politics, it’s historical fact. Alternate facts aren’t an opinion, they’re lies.
There is no lawful mechanism right now while Joe Biden is still alive to go with a different candidate unless Biden steps down. In which case Trump will absolutely win.
Unfortunately, it’s a bit too late to switch candidates now. It’s an election year. Withholding our votes won’t result in better candidates in the next election. In fact in this case there won’t be a next election if Trump wins. We need to politically engaged for the next four years if we want a better candidate in 2028. Which I do. So I’m going to vote for Biden since he isn’t going to destroy democracy for personal gain.
You responded to my comment about American politics calling me a bot because I have the nerve to not suck biden’s dick. Why would I assume you were not in the US?
I think it’s pretty obvious where the blame would be if Trump wins: the stupid folks who refused to vote out of principle. If it was possible that neither could win then your strategy could make sense. But there are ONLY 2 OUTCOMES. Requiring dems to earn your vote is unfortunately meaningless when the only other option is FAR WORSE YOU CRETIN OF INANE CONCLUSIONS.
That’s simply not true. Biden has the option to step down and let a Democrat who isn’t dog shit run in his place. He and the DNC are choosing not to do so. The election is months away. He can still back out if he wants. It is not Trump or Biden unless Dems refuse to listen to voters.
You’re inability to imagine a scenario does not make it impossible. You gave me a false dichotomy, I gave you an explanation of why it was false. You don’t have to like it. Nobody does. But they would have months to campaign. The primaries aren’t even over yet, so it wouldn’t theoretically cost then anything. Dems just need to do it. They’ve had since October. They’re the ones making the choice here. They could make a different one.
But they won’t. Because they care more about making sure the “right people” have power than representing their constituents or even doing what’s right. This isn’t the first time and it won’t be the last.
It’s called being realistic my dude. If you want further left politicians and policies, organize and turn out the vote. If you don’t you get the most milquetoast people-pleasing centrist democrat ever because the DNC is trying to placate as many people as they can.
Have you seen what the right wing has done over the last decade or so with the Tea Party morphing into the Freedom Caucus? There are right wing groups showing up to school board meetings and running for city councils all across the country. They’ve mobilized and are going out and taking what they want and now the formerly “mainstream” Republicans are completely beholden to them and afraid of being primaried in the next off-year election.
The left needs to do the same thing over the next decade or two (or three), that’s the only way we can actually win long term.
Yeah I remember. I remember a lot of steam for Bernie and then a disappointing turn out as well.
Fuck Hillary but lets not pretend he was riding an overwhelming wave of support and a bunch of primaries were stolen from him. He consistently trailed her by like 30 points. I went to a couple of his rallies and donated so I remember, the fervor was nowhere near what MAGA has become right?
Also, that info was leaked by “Guccifer,” a Russian asset, so I’d be wary basing too much on that.
That said, it would be a real problem if Trump won. So if that happens, I hope you’ll be willing to place the blame where it belongs: with the Democrats. They are the ones doing nothing to earn our votes. Biden isn’t even campaigning.
Biden is governing. He’s doing the job he was elected to do. Perhaps that’s enough to earn some votes? Or are votes only earnt by rallies and advertisements?
In any case, it’s completely silly to blame the Democrats for losing if you don’t vote for them yourself. If you prefer Democrats over republicans, then you have to vote for them. Even though they aren’t perfect. If you don’t vote, then it is totally unreasonable to blame anyone else for getting an undesired outcome. Not voting implies that you have no preference.
(And yet again, this is another case where ‘ranked choice’ voting / preferential / instant-runoff would make this whole situation a lot easier. USA could really use some serious electoral reform.)
I don’t currently prefer democrats over Republicans. I think they are equally harmful in different ways. What do I do? I agree that Republicans are wrong on everything, but Dems are wrong on enough things, and majorly so, that I don’t think that they can be reformed. RCV is a pipe dream for the US at large. Especially with dems in positions of power. They haven’t historically been willing to give up power once they have it.
Vote however you want. It’s your choice. If you prefer Republicans, then vote for them. I’m just saying that if you choose not to vote for Democrats, it’s silly to then go on to blame the Democrats for Trump being in power. ‘Blame’ implies that you are unhappy with the outcome, but it is effectively an outcome that you yourself chose with your vote.
If you don’t want Trump to win, then you should choose to vote against him. If you don’t, you yourself are the one to blame. (That said, if you are happy to have that demented tyrant as your president, then go ahead and vote for him. It’s your choice.)
If Dems need my vote to win, then they need to run a candidate that doesn’t support genocide in Palestine. If they can’t or won’t do that, then they are forfeiting my vote. If they do that and lose, then they are the one’s “at fault” for losing.
Trump will green light Netanyahu to fully ethnically cleanse the Gaza Strip. Trump does whatever strongmen tell him to do. It is illogical to allow a candidate whose election will result in more Palestinian deaths to be elected through inaction. Especially when Trump will prevent future elections and thus deny us the ability to elect more progressive candidates in the future.
I don’t currently prefer democrats over Republicans. I think they are equally harmful in different ways. What do I do? I agree that Republicans are wrong on everything, but Dems are wrong on enough things, and majorly so, that I don’t think that they can be reformed.
Honestly? You grow up and read some books. Start with any of Bernie’s books. As you read, try and answer why Bernie, the most popular and longest serving third party politician in history, ran for president by seeking the Democratic nomination instead of running as an independent.
The answer is that the DNC can be changed and has shifted significantly to the left in the last eight years, and will continue to do so. However if you idiotically allow Trump to win the presidency, it will likely be the last presidential election you ever get to vote. The DNC might be made illegal.
The choice is hope for the future or no hope for the future.
And Bernie failed to make any headway because the private club shut him out. How about you grow up and stop making excuses for voting for an old man who aids and abets genocide?
okay, then welcome your next dictator Donald Trump and all that implies (Gilead like conditions, rescending civil and gender rights, requiring Christian worship or prison/execution, an end to all journalism and only Trumpian little red books where you pledge allegiance to him every day or get reported to the police)
Man it’s crazy how these people think they can instill some false duty onto any leftist to “do the right thing” without actually weighing each of the choices carefully. They just see a D next to someone’s name and think they must be the good guy, regardless of what they say.
Did we all forget about the kids in cages on the border? Or the lack of free healthcare/college? Did we forget about the union busting? Biden is not a good guy, he’s just barely better than Trump. He’s certainly better at hiding the heinous shit from everyone.
But yeah man, were all bad people and unamerican for wanting a better choice and hating our hand I guess?
Explain to me how being reluctant to vote for one of two presidential candidates due to their policies and global politics is immature. Am I supposed to just say “well millions will die either way but at least sleepy Joe relieved some student debt?”
What’s impractical is running a country off of the lesser of two evils vote.
Either way you’re voting for a Palestinian genocide and the continuation of neoliberal imperialism.
Edit: the future is bleak either way, Biden has explicitly shown support for the continuation of support for Israel as well as the bombing campaign in Yemen and Syria. All this is to say that there is genuinely nothing we can do to help the middle east in this election.
But sure, we can get a better minimum wage or whatever.
I truly don’t think that matters. If Biden wins trump is just going to claim that the election was falsified again. We’re looking at a boiling point situation with no real answer.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m probably still going to vote for Biden unfortunately. But people acting like the choice is so clear are not reading the writing on the wall.
Edit: people down voting this forgot that trump and his supporters literally have stated that if he is not in office this year, they will do more than they did on January 6th. Many of them will call for an all out civil war. The problem isn’t the end of the next term, it’s the inauguration.
If they try again to do another January 6, or if they had tried to go further last time, they would have been met with force of the US military and they would be absolutely crushed.
Also, the Civil War was organized and planned in secret, long before the NSA and FBI existed, predator drone and hellfire missiles. I don’t think another one could get far enough along to pose an existential threat.
The capital insurrection ended exactly how a 3%'r civil war would end: they’d smear a bunch of shit on the walls until one of them fucks around and finds out, and then they’ll hide their faces as they scurry away out the back door, back into their mom’s basements and motor homes.
Biden is awful, but I would take him over orange Hitler any day of the week. Heck, I would take DC’s Joker over Trump… that will put a smile on everyone’s faces.
Yeah I feel like people misunderstand what I’m saying as though I’m considering voting for trump. I’m not at all. I’m just trying to figure out how well voting for Biden sits on my conscience, or if id rather write in daffy duck this year.
Trump is not on the menu for me, and I feel like I’ve made that fairly clear but not once talking about voting for him.
Of course, no one here is seriously accusing you of voting for Trump; the thing I’m trying to say is that there are a lot of magadiots who will do everything in their power to get Trump back in the White House. There is also a lot of voter suppression in poorer neighborhoods with minorities who tend to vote blue in hopes they give up and go home, which gives republicans an advantage.
There is a very real chance Trump will win in the coming elections, so everyone who opposes Trump and what he stands for should absolutely vote for Biden even if he is awful, because if Trump is back in the White House, there is a real possibility this will be the last election.
I’m saying this as someone who was very cynical about politics for years and didn’t always vote during my life, and have come to regret not voting immensely.
I understand where you’re coming from, but I still don’t think it’s anyone’s right to tell me or anyone else that they are obligated to vote for any president.
Vote for everything else, vote in your local elections. That’s what changes things. But I don’t believe it’s my duty to vote for one of two pieces of shit every election just because of some screeching fucking retards on the Internet.
I’m not telling you you are obligated to do anything, I’m just asking you to reconsider because I’ve been there and deeply regretted not having voted in the past.
Yes, voting in local elections is probably going to make an immediate and tangible difference to your community, and should be encouraged for everyone to participate, but it’s still really important to vote in the presidential elections to keep Trump out of the White House. There is a real risk that if Trump wins in 2024, there won’t be a 2028 election at all…
No, there is no concern that the term limit will be removed or expanded. It hasn’t happened since the amendment was ratified, even after multiple attempts from politicians of various rank and from each party.
There are plenty of things to be concerned about, but the “trump will become the life long leader of the United States in his presidency” rhetoric is stupid and unfounded.
Nixon couldn’t do it, truman couldn’t do it, trump is not as competent or capable as either of these presidents. It will not happen. This is literally the same shit republicans used to say about Obama and it didn’t happen then.
He would have to convince 3/4s of the states in both the house of representatives and Congress to ratify, and there is no way he could do that.
As it should be. FUCKING VOTE! And remember, by not voting for Biden, you are voting for Trump whether or not you actually cast a vote. ALL of the Trump supporters WILL show up on the day.
No. You don’t get to tell me that I have to vote for Biden when he’s not doing anything to earn my vote. He’s allowing Israel to carry out a genocide. So he’s not actually less evil than Trump. You’re just upset because Trump’s shitty policies will impact you more than Biden’s shitty policies. Biden has the lower approval ratings than Trump did at this point. He has not earned a second term.
How about the Dems run a candidate who isn’t dog shit? I vote for Dems as a form of harm reduction, but they aren’t reducing harm anymore. So what’s in it for me? Dems haven’t not done anything about the supreme court, student loans, or threats to democracy and they are largely supporting the actions of Israel. If I’m right, and this is a genocide (I am), then voting for anyone who supports it would be an evil act. They’re going to have to make some changes if they want to earn the votes of people who don’t want to see a genocide carried out on our watch with our bombs.
That said, it would be a real problem if Trump won. So if that happens, I hope you’ll be willing to place the blame where it belongs: with the Democrats. They are the ones doing nothing to earn our votes. Biden isn’t even campaigning.
Okay. But Palestine still gonna be fucked. I get that you don’t care if Palestinians die. But I do. So I get to not vote for the guy currently enabling their genocide. “Trump would do it too” so you admit it’s bad? Demand better from your politicians you weakling.
If you think Palestine is still fucked either way then choosing to empowerer Trump makes even less sense. I think it’s a fact that Trump will be far worse for Palestinians than Biden, but even if we assume they will both be just as terrible on this issue, Trump is also terrible on every issue. If your choice is terrible and completely terrible, logically you should go with terrible. The other choice is even worse.
How could trump be worse?what is worse than arming the Israelies while they engage in genocide? Unless you don’t believe that’s what is happening. In which case,you have been misinformed. Genocide is genocide. Why am I the asshole here for not wanting to vote for someone who is enabling a genocide? Why isn’t Biden the asshole for enabling the genocide or not stepping down?
ah, so the single-issue voter. actually it’s not even single-issue, that’s just giving up status quo in order to effectively vote for worse than status quo. that’s called having a narrow view on the world, you know the middle east isn’t the only thing that exists in american politics right? there are still other things to improve on rather than just saying “oh israel-palestine conflict is going to shit either way therefore why even bother, might as well fuck up every other political issue, it’s useless if we can’t have this one win”.
grow up, you’re effectively casting all your friends and loved ones into the flames with your stubbornness, and casting palestinians into the flames considering trump is going to rail way harder against palestine than biden does. it’s not like not voting means no palestinians die, why do you have this delusion that you have blood on your hands if you vote but no blood on your hands if you don’t. it helps nobody and improves nothing except your own ego because you get to say “oh well i didn’t vote for genocide!” even though you practically voted for more genocide.
It’s not my only issue with Biden, but it is my biggest and the fact that it doesn’t even seem to register as a problem for you is very telling. You don’t care about anything that’s happening to anyone outside of the US huh? Your world is that small? Get a grip. We all draw our lines in the sand somewhere and when the line is crossed, that’s usually the thing we’re going to yell about. I think “I can work with you on anything other than genocide related crimes” is pretty fucking lenient, don’t you?
alright then my guy, what does trump do better than biden that makes you want him to win instead? because you seem so happy to give trump an extra vote. what would trump do better outside of the US since that seems to be where your concern lies? how will not voting for biden achieve your goals and make the situation in palestine any better?
you seem to think that voting for biden is “working with him”, which is just plain delusional. that’s completely outside of the scope of general elections. you’re not relevant to biden, or any politicians, he doesn’t know you exist, don’t think of yourself as so important that you think you’re working with them. what you’re doing is casting a vote to lessen future pain.
if biden were the only candidate, if it were a 1 party state and the only person able to run was biden, then yeah i’d agree with you. voting means nothing. but that’s simply not the case. you are genuinely either stupid or evil if you’d rather give your vote for trump rather than swallow your pride and at least vote to maintain some semblance of liberty (at least what’s left of it). a world where democrats lose the election is a world where you won’t even have the right to criticize your president, nor your government’s genocide.
bottom line is by not participating in the 2 party system in the presidential election, you’re not somehow making a morally correct decision that means you have no blood on your hands. you WILL have blood on your hands if republicans win, no matter how much you try to convince yourself that you totally owned those genociders by basically voting for the worse genocider. your view is extremely short-sighted and you care about your own pride more than the rights of LGBT people, black & hispanic people, etc.
If you can’t see how Trump is worse than Biden I don’t know what to say. It should be self evident at this point that a second Trump presidency will be a disaster for the world. As far as Palestine goes, Biden has pissed off Netanyahu and there’s a whole diplomatic row unfolding right now because Biden said there has to be a two state solution and Netanyahu says no. I guess you’re unfamiliar with Trump somehow but based off his previous behavior he would be more likely to help Netanyahu and encourage him to do even worse things. Trump certainly wouldn’t be getting into a public spat where he’s insisting on a Palestinian state, he’s definitely not going to do anything to stop what Israel is doing, or even to discourage them.
Also, the idea that Trump “certainly” wouldn’t get in a public spat when he is, in fact, Donald Trump and public spats are exactly his MO is fucking laughable.
I’m not saying Trump doesn’t get in public spats, just that he wouldn’t get into one with Netanyahu over Palestinian statehood. The idea of Trump arguing with Netanyahu in defense of the rights of Palestinians is absurd on its face.
I don’t believe this “row” with Netanyahu will amount to anything, which I am basing on Biden’s record of always backing Israel every single time. You and I agree about Trump. We’ve clearly come to different conclusions about Biden. I don’t think we are going to get any further in this conversation.
Trump (to black Americans) in 2016: What do you have to lose?
You’re basically just spouting Trump talking points.
Trump would obviously not only support Israel’s position he would sell them more weapons…wouldn’t care at all about the Palestinian human rights angle and he would allow Russia to walk into Ukraine and that’s just the “foreign relations” plan…domestically, he’s planning on setting up concentration camps for the homeless and undocumented.
So he would do what Biden is doing but more… Justify voting for him however you want. Biden is just as supportive of Israel as Trump would be.
Exactly…so that’s why Trump is worse for everything including the Israel issue.
Not arming the Israeli’s and letting Iran try to start a war it cannot win, which would result in a domino effect of failed middle eastern states, tens of millions of deaths, and tens of millions of war refugees.
Oh but by all means burn the fucking planet down and destroy democracy for 350,000,000 Americans because you want everyone to know how super sad you are over 25,000 avoidable deaths.
The fuck? So just let Israel kill civilians. Cool. I was wrong. You’re not a psychopath. You’re someone who would have gone along with the Nazis.
Lol it’s really funny this imaginary scenario in that person’s head… Thinking that Israel killing tens of thousands today will somehow prevent future deaths that are impossible for us to predict. If I didn’t know any better, I’d call that IDF bootlicking.
No you are incorrect. The Nazis didn’t warn anyone before doing actual carpet bombing of civilians.
Israel warns people before it bombs. Look it up.
More Palestinians will die under Trump. All he does is kiss dictator ass. Trump is going to let Netanyahu ethnically cleanse the entire Gaza Strip.
You’re a liar. Since this is all you seem to care about, know this, you’re going to have blood on your hands if you refuse to vote. I refuse to let you have your bullshit moral high ground. I’m voting for democracy in this next election. There will be nothing but genocide from here on out if America becomes a fascist dictatorship, both at home and abroad. Millions more people will die if Trump becomes president. If millions of Palestinians dying doesn’t matter to you, then you don’t care about the Palestinians.
You’re a liar. Biden is losing in the polls because of this exact issue. If anyone cared about beating Trump, replacing him would be a priority.
Biden won in New Hampshire and he wasn’t even on the ballot. Sounds like he’s going to do fine. I think people will come to their senses about this. Genocide doesn’t justify allowing fascists to take power and do more genocide.
Because its against two people have no name recognition. Its not hard to figure out why no one went out to vote for Williamson or Phillips when most people don’t even know who they are.
Some might say it’s the weakling that can’t make the right decision to vote for the lesser evil even if they don’t like them.
Like I said in the last reply, you get to vote however you like. But if you publicly share your choice, others are free to comment on it.
There it is! The right decision! See and I think you’re making the wrong decision. Aren’t perspectives fun?
Letting fascism win is the objectively wrong decision. It’s not a different perspective, you aren’t thinking.
Letting genocide continue is the objectively wrong decision. So I have two objectively wrong decisions. What do?
Maybe wake up and realize the fascists tricked you into thinking a genocide is taking place when really only 25,000 people have died and the daily death tolls have halved in the last month and have been dropping since after the first two weeks of the war. If it’s a genocide the killing apparatus should become more efficient over time, not less, and certainly not less by half, not with 99% of the alleged target people still alive.
That’s the proportionate equivalent of as starting to limp and fall down when you’re 450 feet into a 26.2 mile marathon.
Vote for the candidate whose election will result in the least amount of genocide. Millions of people dying under Trump is worse than the thousands of people who have died under Biden. If you cared this about the Palestinians, saving millions of lives would be a straightforward math problem.
Bro I don’t care about Palestine that much right now, nothing we can do there, that’s on Israel, Iran and the middle east, you better look in your own fkn back yard because dictatorship is just around the corner while everyone is worried about the next marvel movie and causes they don’t really have any power to effect.
We’ve been selling Israel weapons while they declare exactly what they want to do. What the fuck are you talking about? Biden has gone around Congress twice to sell weapons to Israel. But sure. Nothing we can do. Get fucked.
Palestinians don’t care if Palestinians die. They huddle up around Hamas members and tunnel entrances to die as proud martyrs, human shields for their terrorist captor’s absolutely deranged anti-social and religious beliefs.
It’s very sad that 600,000 to 800,000 people in Gaza ignored the evacuation warnings or were held as voluntary and involuntary human shields by a terrorist organization. The terrorists and their patron state Iran are absolutely psyched that Kentifer got tricked into openly supporting terrorism by these otherwise easily avoidable deaths. Really, it’s very sad that Hamas has no regard for the lives of the people it falsely claims to serve.
The hard right authoritarians of the world support Hamas and call these deaths genocide; Iran, Malaysia, Brazil, Iraq, Syria, etc.
The liberal world order supports Iarael’s right to self defense; America, the EU, NATO, UK, France, Australia, Norway, Austria, Poland, Germany…even Canada.
Think about that and consider whether it not maybe you really have been tricked, why you’re siding with Iran over Canada?
You are a genocide apologist and I hope you live to feel the shame you deserve to feel.
Of course nobody can tell you who you have to vote for.
But regardless of your choice and your reasons, the math of the votes in our stupid system does mean that voting for anybody but Biden, including voting for nobody, helps Trump or his Republican replacement.
If you don’t care about that, that’s fine. Some might argue that you SHOULD care, but that’s a different conversation. The voting decision is a private one that’s yours alone, but understanding how the choices affect the outcome is good for everybody.
I do care about those things. But I also care about Biden not being president for different, equally valid, equally moral, reasons. Also for pettiness sake, he fucking said he’d be a one term president before he ran in 2020 and we should fucking hold him to that but no one fucking remembers it. I cannot bring myself to vote for a man who has said and done the things he had said and done. So if I care about those things as I “should” and if I also care about doing something about the runaway supreme court and not arming a genocidal right wing government (just to name a couple of my objections to Biden’s presidency), who do I vote for? Do I just give Biden another 4 years because the other guy sucks? Even though I know that it means that he will allow a genocide to be carried out and join wars to defend that genocide which will lead to untold deaths?
Like, even in your comment, while you tell me it’s a personal decision, you’re still laying it on a bit thick and its clear what you think I should do with my vote.
Since we’re talking about the general election, I’m looking at it in a pragmatic cause and effect way. We ARE going to get either the R or D nominee at the end of the election. If you literally do not care who gets elected, and you morally can’t throw support behind either, then a third party or non-vote is the right choice for you.
And while I’m not really trying to hide that I would 100% vote against Trump if he’s the nominee, I’m trying to phrase this all in a way that is very neutral. I’ve gone out of my way to not say you’re a fool or that you’re throwing away your vote. Like I said above, if they are literally the same to you, then voting for neither is the correct choice to represent your views.
When it comes to my personal views and voting decision, I’m not a Biden fan, but the difference between the conservative status quo Democrats we’ve been offered lately, and the MAGA controlled Republican Party, is so great in my eyes that I have no question about voting against Trump regardless of how exciting or lame the Democrat is. This isn’t how I want it to be. The two party death grip is the result of how our elections are structured. Changing that system is the dream, but we need the two parties to implement it, so yeah.
I feel like the folks in the good timeline got Bernie in 2016 and saw some of the benefits people in other developed countries enjoy.
Yes. The choice is one or the other so you pick the least bad option. You’re not voting on whether or not to do a genocide, that’s not what this election is deciding. If you genuinely care about the Supreme Court, it’s fucked up because of Trump and if he wins he will stack it even further. And do you really think Trump is going to sell fewer weapons to murderous right wing governments than Biden will? Again, the choice is one or the other so you either vote for Biden or you are serving to empower Trump. You don’t have to love Biden or feel good about voting for him, but please recognize that an even worse scenario will unfold if Trump wins.
No. That is a false dichotomy, as I have said to literally everyone else who has tried to use that argument. There are other options here. The DNC’s and/or Joe Biden’s unwillingness to explore those options doesn’t make them not options. It just means we need to push them harder. Your unwillingness to do so does not mean that the options don’t exist. I am not required to subscribe to your way of viewing politics.
We live in a two party system. There are two candidates who have a real chance to win the presidential election. This has been true for the entire history of US politics. This is not a way of viewing politics, it’s historical fact. Alternate facts aren’t an opinion, they’re lies.
And I’m saying if Dems want to win, they need to run a different guy. That’s not even me, its the polls.
There is no lawful mechanism right now while Joe Biden is still alive to go with a different candidate unless Biden steps down. In which case Trump will absolutely win.
Unfortunately, it’s a bit too late to switch candidates now. It’s an election year. Withholding our votes won’t result in better candidates in the next election. In fact in this case there won’t be a next election if Trump wins. We need to politically engaged for the next four years if we want a better candidate in 2028. Which I do. So I’m going to vote for Biden since he isn’t going to destroy democracy for personal gain.
New copypasta?
If you want to copy my words and spread them across the Internet, go right ahead.
Now bots are getting lazy ans want people do to their job for them?
Hey, if bots care about genocide, then they’re probably better people than you. Have fun voting for Butcher Biden. I do not have to.
US Americans when they find out there are people living outside USA.
You responded to my comment about American politics calling me a bot because I have the nerve to not suck biden’s dick. Why would I assume you were not in the US?
I was calling you a bot because of a rather suspicious account. And the world is big place my friend.
I think it’s pretty obvious where the blame would be if Trump wins: the stupid folks who refused to vote out of principle. If it was possible that neither could win then your strategy could make sense. But there are ONLY 2 OUTCOMES. Requiring dems to earn your vote is unfortunately meaningless when the only other option is FAR WORSE YOU CRETIN OF INANE CONCLUSIONS.
That’s simply not true. Biden has the option to step down and let a Democrat who isn’t dog shit run in his place. He and the DNC are choosing not to do so. The election is months away. He can still back out if he wants. It is not Trump or Biden unless Dems refuse to listen to voters.
Talk about unrealistic.
Has an incumbent ever just bowed out due to pressure from the fringe?
Do you think a new, unknown candidate could drop into the race and have any chance against the right-wing cult that will 100% turn up to vote?
You’re inability to imagine a scenario does not make it impossible. You gave me a false dichotomy, I gave you an explanation of why it was false. You don’t have to like it. Nobody does. But they would have months to campaign. The primaries aren’t even over yet, so it wouldn’t theoretically cost then anything. Dems just need to do it. They’ve had since October. They’re the ones making the choice here. They could make a different one.
But they won’t. Because they care more about making sure the “right people” have power than representing their constituents or even doing what’s right. This isn’t the first time and it won’t be the last.
It’s called being realistic my dude. If you want further left politicians and policies, organize and turn out the vote. If you don’t you get the most milquetoast people-pleasing centrist democrat ever because the DNC is trying to placate as many people as they can.
Have you seen what the right wing has done over the last decade or so with the Tea Party morphing into the Freedom Caucus? There are right wing groups showing up to school board meetings and running for city councils all across the country. They’ve mobilized and are going out and taking what they want and now the formerly “mainstream” Republicans are completely beholden to them and afraid of being primaried in the next off-year election.
The left needs to do the same thing over the next decade or two (or three), that’s the only way we can actually win long term.
“get out the vote.” We tried, they rigged it against Bernie twice.
Yeah I remember. I remember a lot of steam for Bernie and then a disappointing turn out as well.
Fuck Hillary but lets not pretend he was riding an overwhelming wave of support and a bunch of primaries were stolen from him. He consistently trailed her by like 30 points. I went to a couple of his rallies and donated so I remember, the fervor was nowhere near what MAGA has become right?
Also, that info was leaked by “Guccifer,” a Russian asset, so I’d be wary basing too much on that.
Biden is governing. He’s doing the job he was elected to do. Perhaps that’s enough to earn some votes? Or are votes only earnt by rallies and advertisements?
In any case, it’s completely silly to blame the Democrats for losing if you don’t vote for them yourself. If you prefer Democrats over republicans, then you have to vote for them. Even though they aren’t perfect. If you don’t vote, then it is totally unreasonable to blame anyone else for getting an undesired outcome. Not voting implies that you have no preference.
(And yet again, this is another case where ‘ranked choice’ voting / preferential / instant-runoff would make this whole situation a lot easier. USA could really use some serious electoral reform.)
Also, what if I don’t think Biden did what I elected him to do?
I don’t currently prefer democrats over Republicans. I think they are equally harmful in different ways. What do I do? I agree that Republicans are wrong on everything, but Dems are wrong on enough things, and majorly so, that I don’t think that they can be reformed. RCV is a pipe dream for the US at large. Especially with dems in positions of power. They haven’t historically been willing to give up power once they have it.
Vote however you want. It’s your choice. If you prefer Republicans, then vote for them. I’m just saying that if you choose not to vote for Democrats, it’s silly to then go on to blame the Democrats for Trump being in power. ‘Blame’ implies that you are unhappy with the outcome, but it is effectively an outcome that you yourself chose with your vote.
If you don’t want Trump to win, then you should choose to vote against him. If you don’t, you yourself are the one to blame. (That said, if you are happy to have that demented tyrant as your president, then go ahead and vote for him. It’s your choice.)
If Dems need my vote to win, then they need to run a candidate that doesn’t support genocide in Palestine. If they can’t or won’t do that, then they are forfeiting my vote. If they do that and lose, then they are the one’s “at fault” for losing.
More Palestinians will die under Trump. The only logical choice is to choose the candidate whose election will result in fewer deaths.
Palestinians are dying under Biden right now. The logical choice is to try to get him to step down.
Trump will green light Netanyahu to fully ethnically cleanse the Gaza Strip. Trump does whatever strongmen tell him to do. It is illogical to allow a candidate whose election will result in more Palestinian deaths to be elected through inaction. Especially when Trump will prevent future elections and thus deny us the ability to elect more progressive candidates in the future.
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Honestly? You grow up and read some books. Start with any of Bernie’s books. As you read, try and answer why Bernie, the most popular and longest serving third party politician in history, ran for president by seeking the Democratic nomination instead of running as an independent.
The answer is that the DNC can be changed and has shifted significantly to the left in the last eight years, and will continue to do so. However if you idiotically allow Trump to win the presidency, it will likely be the last presidential election you ever get to vote. The DNC might be made illegal.
The choice is hope for the future or no hope for the future.
And Bernie failed to make any headway because the private club shut him out. How about you grow up and stop making excuses for voting for an old man who aids and abets genocide?
okay, then welcome your next dictator Donald Trump and all that implies (Gilead like conditions, rescending civil and gender rights, requiring Christian worship or prison/execution, an end to all journalism and only Trumpian little red books where you pledge allegiance to him every day or get reported to the police)
And I will thank dems for running centrists while Gilead kills me for a trans queer person. Dems aren’t helping prevent Gilead as much as you think.
Man it’s crazy how these people think they can instill some false duty onto any leftist to “do the right thing” without actually weighing each of the choices carefully. They just see a D next to someone’s name and think they must be the good guy, regardless of what they say.
Did we all forget about the kids in cages on the border? Or the lack of free healthcare/college? Did we forget about the union busting? Biden is not a good guy, he’s just barely better than Trump. He’s certainly better at hiding the heinous shit from everyone.
But yeah man, were all bad people and unamerican for wanting a better choice and hating our hand I guess?
Not unAmerica, just impractical and immature.
Explain to me how being reluctant to vote for one of two presidential candidates due to their policies and global politics is immature. Am I supposed to just say “well millions will die either way but at least sleepy Joe relieved some student debt?”
What’s impractical is running a country off of the lesser of two evils vote.
Either way you’re voting for a Palestinian genocide and the continuation of neoliberal imperialism.
Edit: the future is bleak either way, Biden has explicitly shown support for the continuation of support for Israel as well as the bombing campaign in Yemen and Syria. All this is to say that there is genuinely nothing we can do to help the middle east in this election.
But sure, we can get a better minimum wage or whatever.
But only one of the genocidal imperialists will peacefully step down in 2029.
I truly don’t think that matters. If Biden wins trump is just going to claim that the election was falsified again. We’re looking at a boiling point situation with no real answer.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m probably still going to vote for Biden unfortunately. But people acting like the choice is so clear are not reading the writing on the wall.
Edit: people down voting this forgot that trump and his supporters literally have stated that if he is not in office this year, they will do more than they did on January 6th. Many of them will call for an all out civil war. The problem isn’t the end of the next term, it’s the inauguration.
If they try again to do another January 6, or if they had tried to go further last time, they would have been met with force of the US military and they would be absolutely crushed.
Also, the Civil War was organized and planned in secret, long before the NSA and FBI existed, predator drone and hellfire missiles. I don’t think another one could get far enough along to pose an existential threat.
The capital insurrection ended exactly how a 3%'r civil war would end: they’d smear a bunch of shit on the walls until one of them fucks around and finds out, and then they’ll hide their faces as they scurry away out the back door, back into their mom’s basements and motor homes.
https://www.jcs.mil/Portals/36/Documents/JCS Message to the Joint Force JAN 12 21.pdf
The same could be said for trumps proposed future attempt to remain in office. The military did not ever really side with trump.
Grow up bro, we don’t care about your pet bleeding heart topic, either vote for Biden or be prepared to be persecuted in a Trumpian dictatorship.
You don’t care about Palestinian hospitals and children being firebombed? Dope.
Edit: I’m sorry but telling me to grow up while also saying the phrase “trumpian dictatorship” has gotta be one of the funniest things I’ve ever read.
me being told to grow up by another lemmy user is literally 1984 guys
Funny equals censorship complaint.
You’re a fucking retard
Biden is awful, but I would take him over orange Hitler any day of the week. Heck, I would take DC’s Joker over Trump… that will put a smile on everyone’s faces.
Yeah I feel like people misunderstand what I’m saying as though I’m considering voting for trump. I’m not at all. I’m just trying to figure out how well voting for Biden sits on my conscience, or if id rather write in daffy duck this year.
Trump is not on the menu for me, and I feel like I’ve made that fairly clear but not once talking about voting for him.
Of course, no one here is seriously accusing you of voting for Trump; the thing I’m trying to say is that there are a lot of magadiots who will do everything in their power to get Trump back in the White House. There is also a lot of voter suppression in poorer neighborhoods with minorities who tend to vote blue in hopes they give up and go home, which gives republicans an advantage.
There is a very real chance Trump will win in the coming elections, so everyone who opposes Trump and what he stands for should absolutely vote for Biden even if he is awful, because if Trump is back in the White House, there is a real possibility this will be the last election.
I’m saying this as someone who was very cynical about politics for years and didn’t always vote during my life, and have come to regret not voting immensely.
I understand where you’re coming from, but I still don’t think it’s anyone’s right to tell me or anyone else that they are obligated to vote for any president.
Vote for everything else, vote in your local elections. That’s what changes things. But I don’t believe it’s my duty to vote for one of two pieces of shit every election just because of some screeching fucking retards on the Internet.
I’m not telling you you are obligated to do anything, I’m just asking you to reconsider because I’ve been there and deeply regretted not having voted in the past.
Yes, voting in local elections is probably going to make an immediate and tangible difference to your community, and should be encouraged for everyone to participate, but it’s still really important to vote in the presidential elections to keep Trump out of the White House. There is a real risk that if Trump wins in 2024, there won’t be a 2028 election at all…
No, there is no concern that the term limit will be removed or expanded. It hasn’t happened since the amendment was ratified, even after multiple attempts from politicians of various rank and from each party.
There are plenty of things to be concerned about, but the “trump will become the life long leader of the United States in his presidency” rhetoric is stupid and unfounded.
Nixon couldn’t do it, truman couldn’t do it, trump is not as competent or capable as either of these presidents. It will not happen. This is literally the same shit republicans used to say about Obama and it didn’t happen then.
He would have to convince 3/4s of the states in both the house of representatives and Congress to ratify, and there is no way he could do that.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution