Yeah, it’s all from the same origin. The implication being that the one penetrating is “the man” and the one being penetrated is “the woman.” The other part of the implication being to fuck someone is good and powerful and dominating and being fucked is bad and immaculating and submissive.
If that sounds like I’m adding my own words and meaning to a simple phrase, think about what is actually being said when you say “you’re getting fucked by Microsoft.” What, you don’t want to get fucked? Why? Sex is supposed to be a positive thing two people can do together. Unless the one “getting fucked” doesn’t want to and now we’re not talking about fucking, we’re talking about using violent rape as an analogy for what a software company is doing to its userbase and that’s just…kind of fucked up. I shouldn’t have to explain why, right?
Anyway, no, I don’t get mad whenever I hear a phrase that stems from heteronormative ideas of sex. I don’t assume the person saying it is homophobic or an idiot, they probably just don’t know. But a friend once educated me on the subject, I thought about it, and I agree. So now I avoid using phrases like that, and when someone openly questions it like you have, cool, I’ll stop and talk about it.
Maybe there’s something that I’m still missing, but the genders could be any which way and it would still give the same meaning: fucking or screwing someone over. It’s vulgar and tasteless but I don’t think it is necessarily homophobic or misogynistic.
It does simply imply someone is being (sexually) dominated by another, but there’s no placement of “good” or “bad”—just that Microsoft users are being dominated by Microsoft, which is roughly true. I do think it’s a crude analogy and a terrible meme, but to say it’s anything more seems like a stretch.
So, here’s the thing about language though… It changes, all the time. The word fuck itself used to mean “to hit/strike”. Do we then say that it’s always invoking violence if used in a sexual way? Almost never, really, but yes in this meme’s case that much older connotation is somewhat being referenced (though almost no one thinks about that consciously, therefore that meaning simply isn’t there in many folk’s minds).
But the word fuck is used in so many different ways there literally are books and documentaries on that single word. Most of the uses have nothing to do with violence. Most are probably not even sexual.
If I said “that woman sucks!” Am I accusing her of being a fellating hussy? Almost never would that be close to how that phrase is used. But that’s almost certainly what it would’ve meant originally.
The word cunt is another example. No one calls another person a cunt to say “you are a vulva and that is bad”. It means a variety of things regionally but almost never anything about genitals these days.
This conversation reminds me of my mom lecturing me about calling my brother a son of a bitch (I had literally no idea what it meant and was like 8). She told me I was calling her a female dog. No, Mom, not only did I not know what I was actually saying, it hasn’t meant that for a very long time.
Except the meme we’re talking about is depicting a literal butt fucking, so I don’t know what you’re arguing. Clearly any of the alternate meanings of “fuck” are not so detached from what I’ve been saying this whole time or the meme wouldn’t make sense.
Ideas represented graphically aren’t typically meant to be taken literally. They could’ve written “they are fuckin ya” but that would not be funny. Nor would it have fit the format of the meme.
Which it actually was chuckle worthy despite this thread.
Getting tired of engaging with this. The point is at least two people who saw the meme interpreted it as harmful representation and felt strongly enough about it to respond. You don’t have to agree or even take action. Nobody requested the post be deleted or censored.
You could acknowledge the perspective of someone with a different lived experience, consider it or don’t, and move on. Or you could do what you’ve chosen to do and deny that perspective and try to shut it up.
Or alternatively I could stand up for semantic shift’s existence. You literally told me that you were convinced of this paranoid thought by someone else. So not really an organic lived experience. The thread in general seems to agree that you are reaching. That fact is not offensive either, actually
Standing up for another’s lived experience is what an ally does. When a queer friend shares their experiences with me, I listen. I don’t dismiss them as paranoid. Whether or not I get Internet points for it doesn’t matter. All the more reason to hear them out, actually, because queer people are not the majority and their perspectives are easy to ignore if what you care about is which side the bigger number is on.
No offense but you aren’t my queer friend. And besides, both things can be true. This expression can strike someone as wrong and it can also be a part of a semantic shift that other people see differently.
Yeah, it’s all from the same origin. The implication being that the one penetrating is “the man” and the one being penetrated is “the woman.” The other part of the implication being to fuck someone is good and powerful and dominating and being fucked is bad and immaculating and submissive.
If that sounds like I’m adding my own words and meaning to a simple phrase, think about what is actually being said when you say “you’re getting fucked by Microsoft.” What, you don’t want to get fucked? Why? Sex is supposed to be a positive thing two people can do together. Unless the one “getting fucked” doesn’t want to and now we’re not talking about fucking, we’re talking about using violent rape as an analogy for what a software company is doing to its userbase and that’s just…kind of fucked up. I shouldn’t have to explain why, right?
Anyway, no, I don’t get mad whenever I hear a phrase that stems from heteronormative ideas of sex. I don’t assume the person saying it is homophobic or an idiot, they probably just don’t know. But a friend once educated me on the subject, I thought about it, and I agree. So now I avoid using phrases like that, and when someone openly questions it like you have, cool, I’ll stop and talk about it.
Maybe there’s something that I’m still missing, but the genders could be any which way and it would still give the same meaning: fucking or screwing someone over. It’s vulgar and tasteless but I don’t think it is necessarily homophobic or misogynistic.
It does simply imply someone is being (sexually) dominated by another, but there’s no placement of “good” or “bad”—just that Microsoft users are being dominated by Microsoft, which is roughly true. I do think it’s a crude analogy and a terrible meme, but to say it’s anything more seems like a stretch.
Well said.
So, here’s the thing about language though… It changes, all the time. The word fuck itself used to mean “to hit/strike”. Do we then say that it’s always invoking violence if used in a sexual way? Almost never, really, but yes in this meme’s case that much older connotation is somewhat being referenced (though almost no one thinks about that consciously, therefore that meaning simply isn’t there in many folk’s minds).
But the word fuck is used in so many different ways there literally are books and documentaries on that single word. Most of the uses have nothing to do with violence. Most are probably not even sexual.
If I said “that woman sucks!” Am I accusing her of being a fellating hussy? Almost never would that be close to how that phrase is used. But that’s almost certainly what it would’ve meant originally.
The word cunt is another example. No one calls another person a cunt to say “you are a vulva and that is bad”. It means a variety of things regionally but almost never anything about genitals these days.
This conversation reminds me of my mom lecturing me about calling my brother a son of a bitch (I had literally no idea what it meant and was like 8). She told me I was calling her a female dog. No, Mom, not only did I not know what I was actually saying, it hasn’t meant that for a very long time.
Damn. I guess you’re right.
Except the meme we’re talking about is depicting a literal butt fucking, so I don’t know what you’re arguing. Clearly any of the alternate meanings of “fuck” are not so detached from what I’ve been saying this whole time or the meme wouldn’t make sense.
Ideas represented graphically aren’t typically meant to be taken literally. They could’ve written “they are fuckin ya” but that would not be funny. Nor would it have fit the format of the meme.
Which it actually was chuckle worthy despite this thread.
Getting tired of engaging with this. The point is at least two people who saw the meme interpreted it as harmful representation and felt strongly enough about it to respond. You don’t have to agree or even take action. Nobody requested the post be deleted or censored.
You could acknowledge the perspective of someone with a different lived experience, consider it or don’t, and move on. Or you could do what you’ve chosen to do and deny that perspective and try to shut it up.
Or alternatively I could stand up for semantic shift’s existence. You literally told me that you were convinced of this paranoid thought by someone else. So not really an organic lived experience. The thread in general seems to agree that you are reaching. That fact is not offensive either, actually
Standing up for another’s lived experience is what an ally does. When a queer friend shares their experiences with me, I listen. I don’t dismiss them as paranoid. Whether or not I get Internet points for it doesn’t matter. All the more reason to hear them out, actually, because queer people are not the majority and their perspectives are easy to ignore if what you care about is which side the bigger number is on.
No offense but you aren’t my queer friend. And besides, both things can be true. This expression can strike someone as wrong and it can also be a part of a semantic shift that other people see differently.