The problem with “not all men” is that there is an obvious follow up question: “which men?”
If you can’t answer that fast enough to determine if you’re dealing with a violent man, then “not all men” is meaningless to a woman who is trying to not get killed.
Also, you’re basically saying women don’t think about this. I wonder what kind of answers you’d get if you actually asked any of them about this.
Black men usually get the talk at a very young age that they need to be super careful in every interaction with police or else they might be killed.
Now, not all cops are trying to kill black men in traffic stops. But if you don’t know which cops will kill you on the flimsiest pretext, then this isn’t terribly useful to a black man trying not to get killed.
Tell me, is it “racist” of these black men to be concerned about being killed by cops?
It’s not a perfect comparison, but the point is that these are people who are simply being extremely polite to avoid the potential threat of violence, and the other party is the one who has an undue likelihood of perpetrating that violence.
In both cases, the violence is the bigotry, not the worry about who might inflict that violence.
Some - wrong - people might say that black men worrying about being killed by a cop is racism because they are acting on information about their race. These are presumably the same people saying women are sexist for worrying about male violence. As always, noticing bigotry is in fact not the real bigotry.
Let’s go back to the original example: a woman dating.
Assume the woman is a lesbian. Would it be racist for her to apply the behavior in the post when she dated women of color, if her opinion was based on the statistic quoted in my last post?
So, absolutely no interest in the subject matter then. I’ve been trying to figure you out and I think I’ve got it:
You’re using racism as a tool to deflect any talk of sexism, and to imply that saying men are far more likely to kill women is sexist against men, even though it is 100% true. And even then you’re talking about racism using anti-black racist talking points, which is extremely telling.
You’re staying in the realm of innuendo though. You’re not really saying anything. I bet if you actually stood up and said what you mean it would be horrific and you’d get banned, which is why you’re not doing it.
Do you not know how often racists use crime stats to bolster their arguments too?
Men more often kill women is no grounds to make blanket arguments about men in general, same way as some minorities being overly represented in rape statistics is no grounds to make blanket statements about those minorities.
You can say it’s just you “being careful” and whatnot, but you should realize that you’re using word for word the same arguments racists use to justify their racism. Both represent an actual threat to women for sure but it’s no justification for labeling them all, that’s the point.
A woman might in both cases be vary of the specific groups here, at the mildest level. Discrimination can range from very minor to very hostile behaviour. Basically your imagination is the limit for what someone might do about these prejudiced feelings.
actually twisted made up bullshit if you look into it
Statistics Finland, Finnish Government, the police and several university studies have made deep dives into this. But if you can show them wrong then by all means, go ahead. But I can provide you the sources for these claims, if you really want to go there.
You’re supplying nothing and asking me to disprove it. Fuck right off with that.
You yourself already claimed the statistics are “actually twisted made up bullshit if you look into it” and now you are indignant that I’m asking you to show your work. But very well, I’ll supply the sources first and then perhaps you can tell me how they are “twisted made up bullshit”.
Have at it. Shouldn’t be that hard because you seemingly already are knowledgeable about these stats and know they’re bullshit.
These are not the same thing, and it should be obvious if you’re even slightly paying attention.
Nobody is arguing that all forms and types of prejudice are similar. The argument is that you are using the same arguments for your prejudice as those arguing for race based prejudice. But if your argument really is that the effects from one form of prejudice are better than others so it’s fine, then alright. It’s just a terrible look and makes it easier for racists to get away with their shit since their reasoning have been already accepted in other contexts.
Okay, so I think you knew this going in, but those are mostly written in Finnish, and since you already know I’m Australian, you probably knew I can’t speak Finnish. So like, great job there.
Anyway, of the one that I can actually read, the problem is immediately apparent in the title.
Foreigners more often suspects of offences than Finns
Suspects.
That right there is the problem.
The difference is, racists will take these statistics - which often reveal racist policing and the effects of discrimination rather than saying anything about actual races - and twist them to a racist end, which is usually further violence towards those minorities.
Femicide is a real thing.
The difference is clear, and if you can’t see the difference, then maybe you don’t actually care about the people that are being hurt, and you only care about the rhetoric. I don’t know, but I do know you’re missing the point.
This is a repackaging of “not all men”.
The problem with “not all men” is that there is an obvious follow up question: “which men?”
If you can’t answer that fast enough to determine if you’re dealing with a violent man, then “not all men” is meaningless to a woman who is trying to not get killed.
Also, you’re basically saying women don’t think about this. I wonder what kind of answers you’d get if you actually asked any of them about this.
Can I use this fantastic opinion to back racism as well, or is is exclusively reserved for sexism? Thanks!
Let’s apply this logic to racism!
Black men usually get the talk at a very young age that they need to be super careful in every interaction with police or else they might be killed.
Now, not all cops are trying to kill black men in traffic stops. But if you don’t know which cops will kill you on the flimsiest pretext, then this isn’t terribly useful to a black man trying not to get killed.
Tell me, is it “racist” of these black men to be concerned about being killed by cops?
Cops aren’t a race. Actually basing this on racism would go something like this:
“Of the 9,468 murder arrests in the US in 2017, 53.5% were black and 20.8% Hispanic.” Is it racist for cops to be more quick to use deadly force against black people and Hispanic people because they are arrested for violent crime more often than people of other races?
The answer is yes, this is in fact racist.
Footnote: The quoted statistic is the result of systemic racism and various societal issues in the US, and I suggest people read about why there is this discrepancy.
It’s not a perfect comparison, but the point is that these are people who are simply being extremely polite to avoid the potential threat of violence, and the other party is the one who has an undue likelihood of perpetrating that violence.
In both cases, the violence is the bigotry, not the worry about who might inflict that violence.
Some - wrong - people might say that black men worrying about being killed by a cop is racism because they are acting on information about their race. These are presumably the same people saying women are sexist for worrying about male violence. As always, noticing bigotry is in fact not the real bigotry.
Let’s go back to the original example: a woman dating.
Assume the woman is a lesbian. Would it be racist for her to apply the behavior in the post when she dated women of color, if her opinion was based on the statistic quoted in my last post?
My answer would be the same: it would be racist.
You are working really hard to not answer my questions.
Which men?
And, are women conscious of the danger when saying no to men?
This is the sort of logic I’ve seen people use to justify racism. “Not all of them of course but enough, I’m just being careful”.
Tell me, do you know how likely women are to be killed by men vs the other way around?
1
So, absolutely no interest in the subject matter then. I’ve been trying to figure you out and I think I’ve got it:
You’re using racism as a tool to deflect any talk of sexism, and to imply that saying men are far more likely to kill women is sexist against men, even though it is 100% true. And even then you’re talking about racism using anti-black racist talking points, which is extremely telling.
You’re staying in the realm of innuendo though. You’re not really saying anything. I bet if you actually stood up and said what you mean it would be horrific and you’d get banned, which is why you’re not doing it.
1
The only thing that’s clear is that you’re a coward who will not stand up and say what they mean.
If you want statistics I added them to my original post. I don’t care what you have to say about it. It’s not worth trying to parse your bullshit.
Statistics are a dubious justification for blanket prejudice. It’s the exact same thing racists use.
1
Said by someone that clearly doesn’t understand why that is a racist and misleading statistic
Or “prejizz” for short.
Do you not know how often racists use crime stats to bolster their arguments too?
Men more often kill women is no grounds to make blanket arguments about men in general, same way as some minorities being overly represented in rape statistics is no grounds to make blanket statements about those minorities.
You can say it’s just you “being careful” and whatnot, but you should realize that you’re using word for word the same arguments racists use to justify their racism. Both represent an actual threat to women for sure but it’s no justification for labeling them all, that’s the point.
What are women doing with this information?
What are racists doing with their - actually twisted made up bullshit if you look into it - information?
A woman might in both cases be vary of the specific groups here, at the mildest level. Discrimination can range from very minor to very hostile behaviour. Basically your imagination is the limit for what someone might do about these prejudiced feelings.
Statistics Finland, Finnish Government, the police and several university studies have made deep dives into this. But if you can show them wrong then by all means, go ahead. But I can provide you the sources for these claims, if you really want to go there.
You’re supplying nothing and asking me to disprove it. Fuck right off with that.
And the correct answer as to what those groups are doing with the information is:
Women are generally careful not to offend men.
Racists participate in violence against minorities.
These are not the same thing, and it should be obvious if you’re even slightly paying attention.
You yourself already claimed the statistics are “actually twisted made up bullshit if you look into it” and now you are indignant that I’m asking you to show your work. But very well, I’ll supply the sources first and then perhaps you can tell me how they are “twisted made up bullshit”.
Statistics Finland (the national statistical institution): https://www.stat.fi/til/rpk/2018/13/rpk_2018_13_2019-05-16_tie_001_en.html
Government of Finland (pdf): https://julkaisut.valtioneuvosto.fi/bitstream/handle/10024/163523/VNTEAS_2021_56.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
University of Helsinki (pdf): https://helda.helsinki.fi/server/api/core/bitstreams/fc2ee0d3-2124-4a65-9afa-f4a12dd42708/content
Have at it. Shouldn’t be that hard because you seemingly already are knowledgeable about these stats and know they’re bullshit.
Nobody is arguing that all forms and types of prejudice are similar. The argument is that you are using the same arguments for your prejudice as those arguing for race based prejudice. But if your argument really is that the effects from one form of prejudice are better than others so it’s fine, then alright. It’s just a terrible look and makes it easier for racists to get away with their shit since their reasoning have been already accepted in other contexts.
Okay, so I think you knew this going in, but those are mostly written in Finnish, and since you already know I’m Australian, you probably knew I can’t speak Finnish. So like, great job there.
Anyway, of the one that I can actually read, the problem is immediately apparent in the title.
Suspects.
That right there is the problem.
The difference is, racists will take these statistics - which often reveal racist policing and the effects of discrimination rather than saying anything about actual races - and twist them to a racist end, which is usually further violence towards those minorities.
Femicide is a real thing.
The difference is clear, and if you can’t see the difference, then maybe you don’t actually care about the people that are being hurt, and you only care about the rhetoric. I don’t know, but I do know you’re missing the point.