- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
The use of depleted uranium munitions has been fiercely debated, with opponents like the International Coalition to Ban Uranium Weapons saying there are dangerous health risks from ingesting or inhaling depleted uranium dust, including cancers and birth defects.
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Just another piece of evidence that the west never actually cared about Ukraine or people living there. Ukrainians are just a pawn the west is using to try and weaken Russia with zero consideration for the lives of the people living there.
Well, the alternatives are heavy metal, which also aren’t the greatest to breathe in. It’s almost like war is aweful and this one shouldn’t have been started in the first place, but here we are…
No, the alternative is for the west to stop using Ukraine to fight a proxy war with Russia.
And what, let the Russians steamroll Ukraine and take everything? Let them destroy a fledgling democracy? Right on the EU’s and NATO’s doorstep? Come on.
fledgling democracy
lmao are you fucking kidding
and shit while we’re at it, what the fuck do you think NATO has been doing its entire existence? it’s been destroying -actual- fledgling democracies, you monstrously hypocritical ass
a fledgling democracy
Sees notably corrupt country the U.S. couped in 2014, where even the anti-corruption president has personal funds stashed in offshore bank accounts
“Is this a fledgling democracy?”How do you think this is going to end exactly?
let the Russians steamroll Ukraine and take everything?
I’ve noticed that every pro-NATO voice screaming “war good” has to pretend like the binary outcome of this war is a) Ukraine becomes Russia and every living inhabitant is genocided (see above comment from bibibi for case in point), or b) Ukraine heroically drives back Russia with magic in a completely asymmetrical and unwinnable war
Come on.
And then finishes their comment with something like this
There’s no material analysis to support any of this
The only way to get to that viewpoint is to believe Putin is an irrational, genocidal maniac hellbent on killing checks notes neighbors who are ethnically russian, who also desperately wants to push even more of Russia’s border right up against a hostile NATO. It’s no surprise that the people saying this shit are pro NATO and don’t understand the material reality underlying geopolitical conflicts like this one
Not gonna touch the “fledgeling democracy” thing, other comrades can dunk on that
This entire thread is proof that the liberal understanding of geopolitics and foreign policy is entirely vibes based
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“ethnical russian” - what is that?
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russian imperialism is a thing. People there are brainwashed with russia’s greatness ideas and expansion. putin’s actions just represent the will of russians.
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The fact we were attacked and lost that many people is already a defeat. We lost this war when gave up nukes under the push of the west and russia. this together with naivness of our post-soviet people defined the path of our degradation. But it neither a win for russia, and won’t be. Russia was always corrupted just like Ukraine, it just got more resources and nukes, but that’s it. without the above fact and support of the west, maybe we would not be able to suppress them
putin’s actions just represent the will of russians.
this is your brain on liberalism
but thank you for at least conceding america deserved 9/11
russian imperialism is a thing
i just can’t anymore, the cognitive dissonance is fucking astounding, yall can deal with the libs in this thread
im just gonna let people like this
continue to suck off the western imperialists sending radiated shells to his neighborhood, slava ukrani buddyOh man I still remember the post that was leaked from russian government webpage on the 25th, a day after russian invaded. It was an absolute hard on about russian imperialism and how they will restore the good old russian empire or something, which included most slavic countries btw. It was taken down in hours but I checked that the addess was correct and legit. No proof of it since it’s been a year already and I saved nothing, so if you don’t believe it ignore me and please don’t spread this since I have no source anymore, but damn if it doesn’t paint a clear picture of russia’s intent on all of this since way before.
this damning evidence of Russia’s intentions would surely have motivated more countries to send aid to Ukraine. Why didn’t you take a screenshot?? you realize that you’re directly responsible for the deaths of thousand of Ukrainians, right???
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a fledgling democracy?
Lol
fledgling democracy
The real alternative is for Russians to go home. Who the fuck cares who’s using them? They’re being invaded. Russia didn’t need to invade them, but they thought they could get away with it (again). This isnt the first invasion of a sovereign country Russia has done. It isn’t even the first invasion of Ukraine. The US didn’t get involved in the others. Are we just going to excuse those?
I don’t know why people keep repeating this. Do you honestly think this is a coherent point? Russia is obviously not going to go home no matter how many times you’re going to repeat it. It’s a meaningless and useless statement that literally solves nothing. Either NATO can defeat Russia or not, so far it looks like NATO is not able to do so. What NATO is accomplishing is prolonging the conflict without changing the outcome. That means more people dying and having their lives ruined so that US military industry can make a profit and so that US can try and weaken Russia geopolitically. Anybody who thinks the west is in this conflict to help Ukraine is an utter imbecile.
Should the US have sent supplies to the allies in WWI and WWII before joining? It was just prolonging the war and causing people to die, right?
The reason the US is doing it is not morality. Everyone knows that. International politics is never about morality, it’s about power. However, that doesn’t mean it isn’t also the moral option.
Also, NATO and the US are not in the war. We’re sending supplies. The US isn’t even sending the good stuff. We’re sending parts of our stockpile that’s old and has just been sitting around waiting for a use. They haven’t sent the newer technology so it it isn’t studied in case a real enemy requires them to be used.
It takes an incredible amount of historical illiteracy to try and draw parallels between WW2 and the proxy war US is waging against Russia in Ukraine. However, if you weren’t historically illiterate, then you’d also know that US companies continued working with the nazis well into the war, and IBM is famously responsible for facilitating the holocaust.
Also, NATO and the US are very obviously in this war, and one has to be utterly intellectually dishonest to pretend otherwise.
When the US government was providing resources to the allies, was it good or bad? I’m not talking companies or anything else. You’re dodging the question. There are enough parallels to draw a comparison. You just know what the answer would be and it conflicts with your beliefs, so you can’t admit it, to yourself or others.
The yanks were funding the WWII Nazis before they ‘sent supplies to the allies’.
More What-aboutism to dodge answering the question. That’s expected, and it’s about as good as an answer to me and anyone paying attention.
Have you ever played 4x games? Do you know what encirclement is? When an opponent is ringing your territory with bases while they keep telling you it’s totally cool bro, they’re just working on their defenses while making alliances with players adjacent to you, what do you consider is their end game?
Yeah, everyone Russia has invaded has been for defence. Sure buddy. The real world is more complex than a 4X game, but even then you can use that to understand why someone would invade another country. They wanted to steal the resources and population. You may use your statement as a justification, but it is never the actual reason. The excuse of it being defensive is rediculous. Yeah, invading a sovereign country (multiple times) is sure to make the alliance “encircling” you stop. Seriously? Do you believe that rhetoric or are you just saying it because you’re supposed to?
- if Ukraine lose completely most of ukrainans living in Ukraine simply get extriminated or forcely assimilated.
- Russia started the war when invided Ukraine in 2014. not sure where the “using” is.
That’s just fractally wrong.
tell me what’s right. I’m ukrainian living in Ukraine. but please, your bs about дамбілі бамбас won’t work
btw Im not happy with NATO neither with western history. I just know personally what russian imperialistic shit looks like
Yeah and I’m Ukrainian too, on the Jewish side of my family
I know why I don’t have any family left in
and it ain’t the Russiansто що ж сталося з твоїми родичами?
I’m sure Ukrainians agree with you.
The Ukrainians that the regime has been abusing for the past 8 years sure do, here’s some CNN reporting you might want to watch https://twitter.com/paulius60/status/1611148483859255296
Wow I can’t believe you’d post a video from known Moscow-backed front organization… CNN?
Putin puppets have infiltrated the highest echelons of liberal media. That’s the only plausible explanation for this.
Yeah i bet they want the war to end
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But it’s the west that proclaims to be the great defenders of Ukraine. With friends like these who needs enemies.
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The west literally overthrew the legitimate and democratically elected government to install literal fascists in power who have been busy doing this the people in eastern Ukraine for the past either years. If this is news to you then take a sit because you have no clue regarding the subject you’re bloviating on here.
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Russia does not need the west to weaken it, comrade, it is perfectly capable of doing that on its own!
Maybe try engaging with reality? https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-08-11/russia-s-war-economy-is-on-course-to-recover-from-sanctions-hit
You expect me to pay for an article from a neolib shitstain outlet?
Have another neolib shitstain outlet, this time for free: https://www.businessinsider.com/russian-economy-brain-drain-labor-shortage-workforce-exodus-capital-flight-2023-9
The truth is that it’s all quite hard to measure as Russia is lying about its economical figures (they make no sense whatsoever) and going via secondary indicators is possible, but also frought with uncertainty. But two things really stand out: a) investing in a war you’re losing is GDP flushed down the drain, b) they’re cut off from any advanced technology at even half-way reasonable prices, c) massive brain drain, there’s also d) report of very excessive inflation when it comes to food.
If they manage to raise GDP by exporting more oil or whatnot – that’s raising GDP. It’s not actually doing the country any good. More petrorubles for the kleptocrats.
But all that is rather besides the point. Russia, alongside with Ukraine, did a lot of stuff wrong in the 90s. Look at Estonia or e.g. Czechs (if you want to keep it among Slavs) on how to do it… nah, not right, but definitely better.
Ukraine then managed to turn around, develop an actual civil society and clip the wings of the oligarchy, Russia didn’t. That is what I mean with “perfectly capable of messing up on their own”. It’s also the reason for the war it’s a matter of regime stability: There’s plenty of family ties between Russia and Ukraine, if Russians see that Ukraine can escape the yoke of the kleptocrats then they could start to believe that they, too, can do that.
I expect you to have minimal technical literacy to put the link URL in archive.
The truth is that there is no actual evidence to indicate that Russian economy is struggling in any way.
a) investing in a war you’re losing is GDP flushed down the drain
That certainly explains why Europe is in a deep recession now and why US economy is looking shaky.
b) they’re cut off from any advanced technology at even half-way reasonable prices
Once you look at a map you’ll realize that Russia shares a huge border with China where all the advanced technology is produced nowadays. Trade between Russia and China has shot up to over 200 billion this year.
c) massive brain drain
Very little evidence for that actually happening, the article you linked is written by the same people who claimed Russia was a gas station with nukes, and that Russian economy was going to collapse months after western sanctions were imposed. If you haven’t figured out that you’ve been lied to yet, that really says a lot about you.
d) report of very excessive inflation when it comes to food.
Russia has very low food inflation and happens to be one of the major food producers globally. Once again, the fact that you think Russia has food inflation says volumes.
But all that is rather besides the point. Russia, alongside with Ukraine, did a lot of stuff wrong in the 90s. Look at Estonia or e.g. Czechs (if you want to keep it among Slavs) on how to do it… nah, not right, but definitely better.
We’re now seeing Russia having made it through two years of being cut off from the western economy, and doing well for itself. Meanwhile, countries like Estonia and Czech republic aren’t doing so hot. And frankly, it’s completely absurd to compare a country the size of Russia to a country like Estonia.
Ukraine then managed to turn around, develop an actual civil society and clip the wings of the oligarchy, Russia didn’t.
That’s complete and utter horseshit. Ukraine turned into the most corrupt country in Europe, and things have only kept getting worse. Ukraine started as a big industrial power after USSR collapsed, and now it’s been robbed entirely of anything of value.
There’s plenty of family ties between Russia and Ukraine, if Russians see that Ukraine can escape the yoke of the kleptocrats then they could start to believe that they, too, can do that.
What people in Russia see is that under west’s leadership Ukraine managed to become worse than Russia. All that did was convince people in Russia that the west was going to fuck them over exactly the same way they fucked Ukraine over.
Ukraine turned into the most corrupt country in Europe, and things have only kept getting worse.
Ukraine and Russia both did. One of them is making efforts to get out of that swamp.
I find it rather telling that of all the things you found weak retorts for, you completely left out the “More petrorubles for the kleptocrats” part, and how GDP is not a proper measure of the wealth of a people, at least in any even remotely leftist sense.
Ask Tuvans without access to electricity, running water, heck even a fucking gas station, how wealthy they are. Yet they’re not even counted as poor in the official statistics as the way poverty is counted in Russia is highly regional: If you’re poor in Moscow you count, if you’re infinitely worse off in the periphery you don’t.
That is why you see Russian soldiers – primarily from the periphery as joining the army is the only way to make any money as there’s no actual jobs – looting toilets. Fucking toilets. Back in WWII it was water faucets. Nothing the fuck has changed in that regard.
If you think that Putin is “draining the swamp” then you’re no less naive than your run off the mill Trumpet.
(Side note, speaking of WWII: Remember that Soviet flag on the Reichstag picture? That’s of a Ukrainian. Taken by a Ukrainian).
One of them is making efforts to get out of that swamp.
You must be referring to Russia here given that this is what’s happening in Ukraine right now
- https://www.politico.eu/article/volodymyr-zelenskyy-corruption-scandal-crackdown-treason-ukraine-war-democracy-antac-anti-corruption-action-center/
- https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/in-ukraine-now-there-are-autocratic-tendencies-democracy-at-stake-rstd9nn3q
I find it rather telling that of all the things you found weak retorts for, you completely left out the “More petrorubles for the kleptocrats” part, and how GDP is not a proper measure of the wealth of a people, at least in any even remotely leftist sense.
There is zero indication to suggest that regular people in Russia are significantly effected in any way right now. Cost of food, housing, and other essentials has stayed stable.
That is why you see Russian soldiers – primarily from the periphery as joining the army is the only way to make any money as there’s no actual jobs – looting toilets. Fucking toilets. Back in WWII it was water faucets. Nothing the fuck has changed in that regard.
I mean if that’s what you’ve convinced yourself of then what else is there to say to you.
If you think that Putin is “draining the swamp” then you’re no less naive than your run off the mill Trumpet.
No, I don’t think Putin is draining any swamp, but I do think he runs a far more competent administration than western oligarchs.
(Side note, speaking of WWII: Remember that Soviet flag on the Reichstag picture? That’s of a Ukrainian. Taken by a Ukrainian).
And now thanks to the help from the west Ukraine is run by literal fascists. Maybe something you should reflect on.
In any case, this conversation is clearly pointless since you evidently live in an alternate reality. I’ll just let you figure things out on your own and reconcile the fantasies you’ve built up with the real world as it becomes increasingly more difficult to ignore going forward.
“Looting toilets” is the funniest part. Do you really believe that Ukraine is such pauper country that invading soldiers couldn’t loot anything more valuable than used toilets from occupied cities? It’s required to have literally zero critical thinking in order not to understand that this is propagandistic bullshit.
People take PCs, jewellery, and smartphones with them when fleeing. You usually leave the toilet behind.
clip the wings of the oligarchy,
“Pandora Papers Reveal Offshore Holdings of Ukrainian President and his Inner Circle”
Like seriously, you’re arguing that Ukraine’s liberal democracy is somehow better than Russia, when the point of liberal democracies under late capitalism is to strip all the copper out of the walls (privatize, austeritize, union-bust), everywhere, all the time.
…and? The man is a successful comedian, has a production company, and everyone knew he’s a millionaire. Shuffling money offshore is how you keep it safe in a corrupt country.
No tax fraud, no shady business, no nothing has been found regarding those offshore companies. Forbes estimates him at around 20 million Euro, that’s nowhere even close to oligarch scale.
when the point of liberal democracies under late capitalism
…is to be not as bad as straight-up Kleptocracies. Russia is a mafia state. In Ukraine the state arrests you for corruption, in Russia you get arrested for reporting about corruption. The difference is that simple.
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Ahh wonderful, time for so many future children to be born horribly disfigured via contaminated drinking water. Also don’t forget all the booming cancer rates!
OP is known tankie just fyi. Doesn’t justify US or Ukrainian actions but make sure you understand that the reason for posting this isn’t out of any actual concern for human beings. They’re also peddling covid conspiracies
They posted a Reuters article
Is that an evil tankie propaganda website now?
Ah but they posted the Reuters article maliciously. In a scheming, tankie sort of way.
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Found the tankie
found the child
If age related insults are all you can come up with you can’t be older than 20 lol
Your mommy help you come up with that comeback?
Yikes.
using disorders as an insult is ableist
known tankie lmao
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excellent contribution
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OP is known tankie just fyi.
Hilarious.
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So let me get this straight, according to you:
The people that don’t support either side of the war and want to end it as fast as possible through peace talks are evil tankies.
And the bloodthirsty monsters that want to prolong a pointless war, arm Azov Nazis and kill as many people as possible with illegal inhumane weapons that scar generations are freedom-loving liberals.
Seems like the tankies are the more reasonable ones in this situation.
That’s an interesting point, but have you considered Harry Potter?
So you neither support the rapist nor the victim. How enlightened centrist of you.
Lmao what a misogynistic pig to compare sexual assault to war.
What an imperialistic swine to not do it.
Damn, imagine hating women to own the Russians.
Imagine comparing condoning self-defence to hating victims.
Damn, imagine hating women to own the Russians.
want to end it as fast as possible through peace talks are evil tankies.
Surrender == the end of Ukraine. There’s 0% chance of Russia honouring it for any meaningful length of time. They’ll see it as a weakness of Ukraine and they’ll just build up their forces again and attack. Any legitimate peace deal HAS to have the condition of Russia pulling out of all Ukrainian territory otherwise it’ll completely legitimise nations to start wars to take land for themselves. Russia loses nothing by withdrawing. And you 100% know this, which is why tankies keep peddling it - they can claim to be on the moral high ground by saying “we want peace! everyone else are bloodthirsty monsters!” but in reality they know it’ll just lead to more violence and genocide. Imagine calling the Allies blood thirsty monsters in WWII because they didn’t accept a peace deal with Nazi Germany because they wanted it to end as fast as possible.
Nobody wants bloodshed. Ukraine didn’t ask for this war. But they’re not going to give up and let Russia get away with a land grab.
Seems like the tankies are the more reasonable ones in this situation.
If by reasonable that you want Russia to win this war then yeah, sure.
otherwise it’ll completely legitimise nations to start wars to take land for themselves
Have you been sleeping for the last decades? There were plenty of wars. The US didn’t stop them, in fact, the US started a bunch of them, and more were started by US allies, or waged with US help. The US supports illegal occupation (“taking land”) all over, too.
So is there actually any norm anyone adheres to? Seems to me the actual norm is “don’t do anything the US doesn’t like”. It’s got nothing to do with starting wars or taking land.
otherwise it’ll completely legitimise nations to start wars to take land for themselves
no one tell this guy what a nation is it’ll break his heart
This isn’t a children’s movie, there is no good guy in this war.
No one fucking wins, if Azov ‘wins’ then Ukraine will become even more of a Nazi shithole and a husk of an economy as the US calls in all its debts. If Russia ‘wins’ then it won’t be much better off either.
Nobody wants bloodshed. Ukraine didn’t ask for this war.
Than advocate for peace talks instead of grinding more Ukrainians and Russians into paste, you bloodthirsty ghoul.
But they’re not going to give up and let Russia get away with a land grab.
See? You do want bloodshed. You care more about dirt than human life.
There are only two outcomes of this war: A bloody long battle where innocent people get thrown in the meatgrinder regardless of which side comes out on top, or we get both sides to stop fighting and do peace talks so they can compromise and stop the killing as soon as possible. Nothing good will ever come out of this war. It needs to end as soon as possible to stop the bloodshed. The concern here should be stopping the loss of life as soon as possible, not caring about lines on a fucking map. For supposedly being pro-Ukraine, NATO sure loves killing Ukrainians.
The people that don’t support either side of the war
They (and you) are clearly supporting Russia.
If we’re supporting capitalist Russia the same way NATO tools are supporting Nazi Ukraine then where are our comments saying we should send money and weapons to Russia to defeat the Ukrainian ‘orcs’, then? Show me where these pro-Russia comments are, I’ll wait.
Get real, none of us have said anything in support of modern capitalist Russia. We’re communists ffs, would we really support the thing that killed the Soviet Union? Use your head.
Next, you’ll tell me that people against the war on terror in the Middle East were on the side of the Taliban.
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Fuck off fascist warmonger
peddling covid conspiracies
like what?
Probably the conspiracy that the virus is still a pandemic and people are still dying and we should all wear masks, you know the truth
Yeah that’s a silly article. Strange that a supposed “tankie” would post something that pushes the Chinese lab leak conspiracy though, especially from an outlet run by an NYT liberal like Bari Weiss.
tankies don’t have coherent ideologies, or they wouldn’t be tankies
Define tankie, or do you just go off of vibes and guesses without any coherent thoughts about your opponents yourself?
Info is reuters. Are you on a crusade against tankie? Because it looks like you are.
That’s a pretty bad faith take, they’re just pointing out that op has an agenda as to why they are linking this specific article.
op has an agenda as to why they are linking this specific article
everyone has a fucking perspective, that’s a normal human behavior. do you expect people to just randomly select articles to post?
“normal human behavior” Great rationale, normal human behavior excuses everything
excuses what, going on a link aggregation site and posting an article that you find relevant to your perspective on the world?
What’s a tankie lol
Something like Stalinist communists. Usually used for non-Russians, but for some reason they love Russian imperialism.
Can’t wait for Azov to become the new Taliban and bite America in the ass
Every person involved in making this decision deserves to be buried in an unmarked grave with the weapons they love so much. How many innocent people completely uninvolved with the war are going to grow up suffering the effects of depleted uranium rounds? Another absolutely monstrous decision in a long line of monstrous decisions by the US government.
Yes, we get it, the response to literally every decision you don’t like is massacre of the people you don’t like
Are you aware of what depleted uranium does to the human body? Innocent people are going to be dealing with the consequences of a decision made by a handful of people across the planet for decades after the war ends. Does poisoning generations of people sound like “defending” Ukrainians to you?
But Depleted uranium isn’t enriched uranium.
You’re lying.
depleted uranium is a radioactive carcinogen, and linked to substantial increases in birth defects and cancer in Iraq
Who said it was? It’s still an environmental contaminant, a carcinogen, and linked to a rise in birth defects after its use in Iraq
It’s use will have consequences far outside of the conflict and ruin the lives of who knows how many people who had absolutely no say in this war and I’m supposed to cheer it on?
Yes, but why are you upset about this particular heavy metal as opposed to all the others involved in weapons?
The op is specifically about depleted uranium but hey, if you want to make the case that we shouldn’t be sending weapons to Ukraine in the first place I’m not going to argue against it
In that case, why do you pretend to care only about certain weapons when you don’t want any weapons sent?
Depleted uranium is still a very dangerous heavy metal. It just doesn’t irradiate what it poisons.
- Yes, I’m aware of the effects of depleted uranium on the human body; are you? 2) What would you propose to help Ukraine evict the genocidal invaders from its territory?
Now we’re just throwing genocide into the mix?
No
Non radioactive munitions.
Show this thread to someone from the 1980s and they would kill themselves. Mainly over your shit
What a compelling response 🙄
Bruh said le sigh…
No analysis, just vibes. Gonna go genocide some mashed potatoes rn
Just stepped in someones front yard without permission, which is technically an invasion, and ive been told this is tantamount to genocide. Am I an imperialist war criminal, Hexbear?
Guilty of all charges.
Sounds like a typical fash pastime
What would you propose to help Hawaii evict genocidal invaders from its territory?
Seeing one thing Hm, this is like every thing
-The Eternal Lib
It’s almost like I’ve seen this same redfash response multiple times 🤔
What can I say we like methods that get results
It’s almost like my original comment was correct
Your original comment was word salad.
Just because you can’t understand it, doesn’t mean it’s word salad comrade
Redfash one hell of an oxymoron considering the reds are in the habit of killing fash.
That’s what they want us to think, anyway
There are complications, but a dialectical analysis shows that redfash are indeed fascists, and there’s no need for Holocaust denial to say so
“You are treating a specific example like a broad generalization to deflect someone’s valid point”
vs.
“Heard that one before
”Fallacy of the beard. Marx’s beard, even.
What do you think should be done with war profiteers that destroy societies for money?
The same that should be done to all fascists, including the red ones
It’s a tankie, that’s their answer to everything they can’t strawman around.
pretty funny coming from a dronie
Yeah, “dronie” would be the correct term a tankie would use for a person who supports a country that was invaded by fascists defending themselves.
The only fascists in this conflicts are the ones you support, they’re pretty open about being fascists too. These are the actual people defending themselves from scum like you https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/20/ukraine-widespread-use-cluster-munitions
No, the only fascists are the ones that crossed the border into Ukraine and are currently being pushed out. According to the article you linked, it states it’s not possible to conclusively prove who launched those cluster munitions in October.
I’ve noticed the Russian Fascists haven’t had a problem using cluster bomb on civilians, targeting hospitals and non-military health care facilities and generally committing random warcrimes.
You know, the simple solution for the war crimes to end would be for the Russian invaders to admit they fucked up, retreat to the borders that were recognized in 2013 and start preparing for the trials at The Hague.
But, Putin is too weak and much like Tankies need to tank… Russian fascists need to fash.
The regime you support has been doing all of this to people of Donbas for eight years, and even CNN covered this https://twitter.com/paulius60/status/1611148483859255296
People like you didn’t care, and all of a sudden you pretend to give a shit about people of Ukraine. You’re just a morally bankrupt scumbag.
They aren’t that dangerous as a weapon of war. The uranium is depleted, as the name suggest. The alternative is heavy metal, which is also dangerous to breathe in. It’s war and it sucks for health. Maybe there shouldn’t have been an invasion…
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7903104/ this shit is still causing birth defects in Iraq. This is Ukraine’s future now.
And so do other heavy metals. What do you suggest they use that won’t have negative health impacts (which is ironic for something designed to kill, but whatever)?
Any heavy metal causes similar issues. Heavy metal will be used, whether it’s uranium or something else. Should they just stop shooting?
Unironically yes. A peace deal was in the works last year until, according to the Ukranian Pravda, Boris Johnson pressured Zelensky not to go through with it. This would have stopped the fighting and resulted in some withdrawal of Russian troops, but since the West is more interested in weakening their geopolitical rivals and helping the weapons industry rake in profit than ending the war, they squashed any possibility of that happening.
No, Ukraine didn’t want to give up but they were becoming desperate. Boris Johnson came in to let them know the West was finally willing to offer some support. Ukraine giving up would not have resulted in the withdrawal of russian troops from their newly conquered territory
Uranium is a very dangerous heavy metal, it just isn’t radioactive.
Depleted Uranium is definitely radioactive. It’s depleted but there are still radioactive isotopes in it. It’s relatively same to handle until it’s fired and some of it turns to dust. The dust is both poisonous and radioactive. The toxicity of it is probably worse than the radiation but they’re both still bad.
The radioactivity is a problem its just like, not significant compared. Sorry my b
Nowhere did I make the claim that it was, that doesn’t change a thing
I’m replying to the person replying to you
My bad, I got the colors of the bars mixed up
Ah, yes, a nice hexbear to giggle at on my Sunday evening.
🌽 🌽 🌽
Post your hog
Whatever munition you choose, it will lead to heavy metal poisoning.
depleted uranium is much worse than conventional ammo.
Being invaded is worse.
The quickest way to save the most amount of lives is whatever gets rid rid of Russia the quickest.
No question.
Depleted Uranium is hardly dangerous.
Another booby trapped mine with a grenade underneath gets placed by Russians every 4 minutes.
Another Ukrainian citizen is tortured.
And now there are reports of Ukrainian children being tortured.
Bring on the napalm.
Depleted Uranium is dangerous for anyone exposed to it. It will be a persistant environmental pollutant that could render large areas unsuitable for agriculture. Downplaying the effects is stupid and dangerous.
We need to talk about the effects and weigh the military benefit vs. the long term problems. Also for the military benefit you cannot take the shortcut of assuming no AP munitions to be used otherwise. Also the question is whether stronger AP abilities are needed, as Abrams should make quick work of T64s and probably T72s with normal AP rounds too.
So we have to weigh a potentially marginal benefit with a significant long term health effect. I trust the Ukranian army and government to make that decision, but again the issues shouldn’t be downplayed. Because of downplaying and ignoring the issues with it there is thousands of American and British vets that suffer from diseases and birth defects in their children, struggling to get it recognised and properly compensated.
Depleted uranium is not much different from lead. Heavy metals are unhealthy. It is barely radioactive as it is made from the rather stable uranium isotopes. (Hence depleted)
Uranium is pretty toxic compared to lead. LD50 is roughly 114 mg/kg vs. 4665 mg/kg depending on source. If you happen to get that dust inside your body, the radiation isn’t going to help you stay healthy either.
Link medical studies or gtfo
the “quickest way to save the most amount of lives” is peace talks. Both armies are locked in a stalemate and the war is going nowhere.
What is the point of peace talks with Russia? Promises and assurances by Russia have had no weight or effect. Which is why the war even happened. Also, Russia can end the war any day they want.
Russia started the war in the first place because — whether you think the fear is reasonable or not — Russia has loudly proclaimed for decades that they view NATO encirclement as an existential threat, and Ukraine joining NATO would massively expand NATO presence on the Russian border, leaving basically only Belarus as a buffer. And if Ukraine took Crimea with them while joining NATO, Russia would lose access to their only deep warm-water port on the black sea, Sevastapol, a port that is economically significant to them.
Maybe if Russia stopped invading their neighbors, then other neighbors wouldn’t feel the need to join NATO as protection from Russia.
It’s not.
Whatever water you drink, it will lead to heavy metal poisoning (eventually).
Whatever music you listen to, it will lead to heavy metal poisoning. Or to malmusicion.
Whatever heavy metal poisoning you get, it will lead to murmaider.
Not sure if dad joke.
Pun intended?
Wine cave warrior NAFO ghouls are already doing Adults In The Room armchair calculations about how these death treats will increase chances of a profitable victory for their corporate masters by .03216% and how it’s a heroic sacrifice that disposable Ukrainians must make to defend the land for future profitability.
🍷 🍷 
Yet more confirmation that the West regards Ukrainians as subhuman, and that they know they’re not getting the territory back. Generations of birth defects, the unexploded bombs that cluster bombs leave behind, more and more people being drafted and shoved into a meat grinder in a war that’s already lost, just so some American ghouls can make a bit of extra cash off their Raytheon stocks.
None of this was worth it. But it’s going to keep happening. The US will keep arming Nazis and pushing war over diplomacy and destabilizing everything until something is done to get rid of those bastard war profiteers and the ghouls who lied us into Iraq and Afghanistan.
This shit’s so fucking stupid. Can’t wait for the chickenhawks to call me a bad person while sitting behind their keyboards demanding others be forced to fight in their stead.
dropping a bunch of depleted uranium around seems a lot like the actions of a state that couldn’t give less of a shit about the wellbeing of the people living there
I’m just glad that as an Adult in the room, I’m on the right side of history. Arming Ukranian Nazis with depleted uranium is actually the least evil option and anyone who doesn’t understand that is a child.
Another 50 billion for the cause!
Why though? Can’t imagine that these rounds are going to change the course of the war, so why? Are they out of non-Uranium ones?
the cruelty is the point
Nope the effectiveness is the point.
Imagine being this bloodthirsty you’re willing to let Ukrainians suffer the effects of depleted uranium just to kill more Russians
“let” Ukrainians.
Your patronising colonial mask is slipping.
Ukrainians have ASKED for these weapons so they can get rid of the murderous, child torturing Russians out of their country.
Stop amplifying the propaganda of child torturers.
“Opposing the poisoning of masses of innocent people who had no say in the war is propaganda. I am very smart!”
it’s kind of impressive how consistently we get the dumbest takes possible from lemmy.ee
Imagine defending a regime that targets hospitals and schools for missile attacks and rains white phosphorous down on cities.
If the Russians cared about anything beyond their own expansionist agenda, they’d retreat and end the war they started. If you actually cared about the suffering of Ukrainians, you would stop being a mouthpiece for that regime.
Fuck, I almost thought you were on about the US and Israel but guess not ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Too bad you still are pushing for the war to even continue. You don’t want the Russians to genocide every single Ukrainian so you still propose they should just do it themselves and continue running straight into landmines. 🙄
How about some peace talks? Maybe? Oh wait Boris Johnson thought otherwise…
I think Russia would be the most bloodthirsty if this was a contest. Good try though.
Na, that’s still you
Also least self aware
The body count of the West is several orders of magnitude higher than Russia’s
Whataboutism.
Please don’t use that against them, even as a bit as it’s extremely powerful and causes irreperable emotional damage. Be mindful, libs are people too.
Yes it’s that simple isn’t it? At least to a simpleton.
Because of the uranium bullets are denser and heavier than the lead bullets and you can use the uranium bullets on certain types of aircraft and other weapons systems to shred through medium to heavy armor that could not be penetrated with a lead bullet. TLDR this will be used as a force multiplier.
They are harder and penetrate armour better. So yes they will provide an advantage.
The sooner Russian occupiers are no longer murdering Ukrainians and dropping mines over every square meter of land, the less harm comes to Ukrainians.
Tungsten penetrators perform better than DU ones. They’re just more expensive and Ukrainian lives aren’t worth that much.
Plenty enough to rip through the Russian armor! These are just old stockpiles of ammunition that weren’t getting use anyways.
love to refresh my arsenal via proxy war
Love to get rid of my toxic waste by simply poisoning a different populace
I know it hard for the recently scratched liberals to understand this, but It’s perfectly okay to decommission a weapon, you don’t have to use it on people to get rid of it.
No individual measure aside from troops on the ground or nukes is going to change the course of the war by itself.
The ammunition is very effective at punching through the armor. But the Ukrainians will be fucked when in 5 years Leukemia in children is skyrocketing
Maybe but if they lose the war will that be better?
So what, you’re suggesting that right now they are “winning”? By what metric are they “winning”? Western brownie points? Because all of the teenagers and young adults that are 6ft under would beg to differ.
You suggest they roll over and give up?
Russian forced are mechanized and entrenched, depleted uranium self sharpens on impact, yielding far better armor penetration than previous technologies.
And more generational cancer
Ammo is ammo. It’s better than hurling stones.
Luckily, the uranium dust is only a problem if the Ukrainian tanks actually get in sight of the Russians.
I’m sure Ukrainian soldiers on the front line are worried about cancer and birth defects.
It’s not about them. It’s the children who find the spent ammo later.
This crap is the reason that there are birth defects spikes anywhere the US military operates.
Ok but the alternatives are not environmentally conscious either, finally the people who’s land it is should be the ones making choices about the conditions of that land
The alternative is to stop using people of Ukraine to fight a proxy war with Russia.
The people of Ukraine seem to have a somewhat different view on the matter
That’s a really convenient narrative based on the fallacy of homogenizing Ukraine. Let’s take a look at a few slides from this lecture that Mearsheimer gave back in 2015 to get a bit of background on the subject. Mearsheimer is certainly not pro Russian in any sense, and a proponent of US global hegemony. First, here’s the demographic breakdown of Ukraine:
here’s how the election in 2004 went:
this is the 2010 election:
As we can clearly see from the voting patterns in both elections, the country is divided exactly across the current line of conflict. Furthermore, a survey conducted in 2015 further shows that there is a sharp division between people of eastern and western Ukraine on which economic bloc they would rather belong to:
Maybe learn a bit about the subject first.
election in 2004
2010 election
I wonder if anything of note happened between then and now, in other news Donald Trump is still president and gay marriage is illegal in the US
Maybe learn a bit about the subject first.
I suggest you go to Kyiv in the grocery store and explain this to the workers there
Oh yeah, things of note definitely happened since then
- https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/20/ukraine-widespread-use-cluster-munitions
- https://twitter.com/paulius60/status/1611148483859255296
I suggest you go to Donbas and explain the above to people there that the regime you support has been maiming for the past decade.
What I see is a very deliberate attempt of russia to try to breed out an ethnicity in an attempt to create a reason to take more land. Which is exactly what happened- maybe learn about the subject first.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
Then why don’t you ask Russia to withdraw, wouldn’t that be easier?
Russia is obviously not going to withdraw, and you or me asking Russia to withdraw isn’t going to make it happen. However, people living in western countries do have at least some influence on their own regimes. Of course, the reason western regimes can keep the proxy war going is precisely because a lot of scumbags are cheering it on right now.
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People of Donbas whom the Ukrainian regime was abusing for the past eight years asked Russia for help to defend their lives and home. The atrocities the Ukrainian regime was committing were even covered by CNN in 2014 https://twitter.com/paulius60/status/1611148483859255296
Meanwhile, the west is not helping Ukraine, it’s prolonging the war which results in more people dying without changing the outcome. This war could’ve been over last March when Russia and Ukraine almost signed a deal, but UK and US decided to torpedo it. If that’s your idea of helping Ukraine then you need to get your head checked.
Lol the people of ukraine are fighting against a war of aggression from Russia. That’s it.
The alternative bring tungsten? It’s very stable so anything besides eating a spent rod isn’t going to have effects. If it’s in the air it’ll just be inert. Even if it gets in your lungs it’ll be like any other dust. DU on the other hand would keep emitting radiation internally.
But which people? Government or the people who actually own the land?
And I guess, their favourite choice of “Don’t use any weapons on my land and just clear off voluntairily” is not an option.
I don’t get why people hate on the Ukraine for using weapons to defend themselves. Not like they chose to be attacked.
The amount of Ukrainians dying right now will pale in comparison to those effected by the munitions.
The controversy around depleted uranium rounds is way overblown.
Even in Iraq the evidence is super inconclusive. And yes birth defects rose however the entire country basically collapsed for years and nothing clearly indicates it was the DU used.
Don’t get me wrong, it’s nasty stuff. But this is war, more people are getting killed by bombs then any DU related cancer can cause.
In Basra the rate of leukemia in children rose dramatically and that is too specific of a disease to not be linked to DU exposure due to the heavy use of it in surrounding tank battles.
- correlation ≠ causation. 2) if the disease is caused by DU, is it due to the radioactivity or the fact that DU is a heavy metal?
i never said it had to be because of radiation. Even just in its effect as a heavy metal it seems to be much worse. Also it could be that it becomes airborn more easily than other metals such as lead, so the wreckage of tanks shot with DU are more dangerous to the people cleaning them up.
Why are you so worried about speculated harms when Ukrainians are actually being raped, tortured, and murdered by russians? Your lack of humanity is showing
Turning “we need to weigh benefits and costs” into “your lack of humanity is showing” is quite a take and obviously has nothing to do with reality.
How do you you it’s not linked to any of the other hundreds of dangerous chemicals?
Because the issue is specific to the region and started specifically after the tank battle where DU ammunition was used. If it would be a general issue with some dangerous chemical being used, we’d expect to see similiar issues in other regions. Of course it is hypotheticakky possible that at the same time some dangerous and persistant chemical exposure happened in the region, but that is not plausible and also the US would have a strong interest in finding such an alternative explanation. But there isn’t any research published, that provided an alternative.
Also look into the wording of the US when sending the ammunition to Ukraine. They state that no radiation hazard is to be expected for the Ukrainians. They do not talk about a toxicological hazard.
Is ammo made from lead that much better? I honestly don’t know. Sure the radiation sucks but Uranium, at least the isotope they’re sending is “barely” radioactive. It’s the same Uranium people had in their plates etc. The toxicity is probably the far more relevant factor but I don’t know how Uranium compares to lead.
Depleted uranium is not really that radioactive. Everything is technically radioactive eventually though. Depleted uranium is what’s left behind when you seperate the radioactive stuff out. It’s a heavy metal still, so isn’t good for you, but heavy metals will always be involved. Trying to have a war using only healthy, organic, ethically sourced munitions isn’t going to happen.
It’s nothing to do with radioactivity, it’s the toxicity that comes with most heavy metals.
There isn’t radiation in Depleted uranium.
This makes sense.
I imagine there’s a lot more reasons for birth defect spikes post US mil ops in addition to this. The military isn’t exactly an environmentally conscious operation. ☠️
Sure, burn pits and other crap will help.
But this kind of ammo, kids will find and hang on to. They bring it home, add it to their collection of other cool shit they’ve scavenged…and then their brothers and sisters are born with malformed limbs, mishaped heads, etc.
There have been a lot of stories written about it over the years. The one I read was specifically about Iraq I believe, but it was a while ago.
To be fair, the impact of DU is mostly because of heavy metal poisoning, not radioactivity.
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You’re acting like being near this stuff is akin to standing in Chernobyl while it just isn’t true
Agent orange is what plants crave
We have to remember that Russia caused this war, however. So they also caused the depleted uranium being a possible health risk for future ukrainian children.
Everyone should worry. Depleted uranium will contaminate large crop production areas and later these grains will be sold all around the world. Everybody will eat some.
What does the “depleted” part of depleted uranium mean?
Depleted means that the radioactive isotope is lower in concentration. It still is somehow radioactive (it’s almost fine if not ingested) and still remains a heavy and toxic metal.
Banana is somehow radioactive too you know. Or granit. Anciant Greece monument often are above the radiation levels allowed in a nuclear power plant.
Also, while you talk about it, lead is far far more toxic than depleted uranium. Many metals are toxic actually, that’s why your government monitor water meant for consumption.
lead is far far more toxic than depleted uranium
Looks like that might not be correct. https://lemmy.world/comment/3108233
Ancient Greece used marble for monuments, not granite…
Right, so how are all these large areas and crops going to be contaminated?
When they explode, they spread radioactive dust into the surrounding area. If that area is ever farmed it can contaminate the crops and cause cancer to anyone breathing in the dust
And what is the level of risk of that happening?
There are multiple different isotopes of uranium, depleted has less of the kinds good for bombs or fuel.
Are you denser then Uranium? Why do you think there is an issue with waste from nuclear power plants? Hint: it is radioactive!
Calls me dense, doesn’t know what depleted uranium is
Sure, whatever makes you feel lighter.
No it won’t
You will get cancer sooner by staying in the sun on a beach or anywhere.
Yes, Ukrainian soldiers on front line are worried about cancer and birth defects. They are rational human beings who hope to return to their homes and live long lives and grow healthy children, not some subhumans with only intent to kill, kill, kill, as you wish to think.
I don’t know how rational this is. Given how many soldiers have died so far, if I were a Ukrainian sent to fight on the front line, I wouldn’t expect to be coming back. Rather I’d hope that I contribute to the defeat of the enemy, so that my children or my comrades children don’t grow up under Russian rule. I’m not in their shoes of course. There’s no universal motivation so maybe what you say is more prevalent. That said, this war might not end without soldiers doing a lot more killing so “kill, kill, kill” might be an appropriate viewpoint.
Oh well… The amount of health risks that these rounds would cause would pale in comparison to the mines that the Orcs have planted everywhere. Anything to drive out the invaders!
Using depleted uranium rounds on your own territory seems bad. Especially since ukraine is a major exporter of grain.
Then again , shooting a gun inside is stupid, until someone is breaking in and trying to kill you.
