• gedaliyah@lemmy.worldM
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    7 months ago

    That’s not what proportional warfare means.

    It has nothing to do with the numbers being proportional on two sides. It’s whether the military response is proportional to the military goal. The military goal in this case is the defeat of an embedded terrorist organization and return of hostages.

    • FrowingFostek@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      By that definition Israel is failing to meet its military goal. Killing SO MANY innocent civilians would be considered a military failure by any other western county.

      Unless the goal is collective punishment and not proportional warfare.

      • AstridWipenaugh@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        Yup, a total failure. They’re currently at -2. They’ve rescued no hostages and killed two “by accident”. The only time Israel got hostages was when the military was put on a leash during a ceasefire and they traded some of their own Palestinian hostages.

        • gedaliyah@lemmy.worldM
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          7 months ago

          Israel does not keep or have Palestinian hostages.

          You are trying to establish a moral equivalence between kidnapping civilians from their homes and arresting suspected or convicted criminals. They are not the same thing and equating them only muddies the waters on the real underlying issues.

          • AstridWipenaugh@lemmy.world
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            7 months ago

            Israel has thousands of Palestinians in “administrative detention” that have not been accused of any crimes. Using a fancy word doesn’t make them not hostages. You are right that falsely imprisoning thousands of people over a long period of time as part of a standing policy of oppression is not the same as having 50 one time hostages. It’s way worse.

            https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/29/why-does-israel-have-so-many-palestinians-detention-and-available-swap

              • AstridWipenaugh@lemmy.world
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                7 months ago

                Dozens, maybe as many as 100. There were only about 200 taken to begin with. Hamas gave back more than a third, and Israel has murdered at least several, that we know of. So sure, bicker about that number and give no fucks about the THOUSANDS of hostages Israel is keeping with no plans to release.

          • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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            7 months ago

            Lmao, no. Holding people without charges is kidnapping them and that’s the best interpretation. The words State Sponsored Terrorism exist for a reason.

            • gedaliyah@lemmy.worldM
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              7 months ago

              This is exactly what I mean by muddying the waters. Israel clearly has an extremely damaged criminal justice system, but those underlying systems are not going to be addressed as long as the world refuses to acknowledge them.

              When you have activists who only understand half the story decrying Palestinian “hostages,” they draw focus away from where it’s needed. Israel needs serious criminal justice reform, but that is now than ever from happening.

              • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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                7 months ago

                I have an idea about how they could start, stop detaining people for no reason and holding them for years without charge.

                • gedaliyah@lemmy.worldM
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                  7 months ago

                  Okay, so now you are beginning to clarify instead of obfuscate.

                  You’ve identified a problem with policing; unjust detainment. That’s something that deserves attention. You can donate here to help.

                  • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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                    7 months ago

                    I’m sorry but they’ve had time to reform that. What needs to happen now is the release of all Israeli held hostages.

      • gedaliyah@lemmy.worldM
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        7 months ago

        I disagree, but at least you are understanding the correct meaning of proportionality and we can have a discussion.

          • gedaliyah@lemmy.worldM
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            7 months ago

            While it is impossible to have an accurate count, the best estimates are that about 1/3 of those killed have been combatants. The UN estimates 90% civilian casualties across all wars. The Iraq war was similar in that it involved urban, embedded terror groups and modern technology. The civilian casualty ratio was 77%. This war is in line with other conflicts of the past 50 years.

            It is still a terrible tragedy. War is always a tragedy.

            • FrowingFostek@lemmy.world
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              7 months ago

              50 years is a long time, improved technology should reduce civilian casualties not keep them in line.

              Iraq was a military failure, Israel’s assault on Gaza is a military failure, and the world needs to recognize it.

              • gedaliyah@lemmy.worldM
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                7 months ago

                True. Unfortunately, I’m not sure that we have yet seen what a military success looks like in the Middle East.

                • FrowingFostek@lemmy.world
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                  7 months ago

                  Leaving the middle east, as politically caustic as the idea may be, its the only viable path to military success in the region.

            • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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              7 months ago

              The Iraq war was fought against a standing military. The follow-on counter insurgency was far less lethal to civilians. Call us when Hamas is running T-80 Tank Divisions.

    • KeenFlame@feddit.nu
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      7 months ago

      The people that told you that are mentally insane, so you know. I know it feels good to have a rationalisation and that they seem reasonable. but they are emotionally immature men that have traumas preventing them from growing up correctly and now they are in a psychosis.

      No, nothing about any one killing anyone is about a military target goal. It’s not justified to do these things. Just like it was and is not justified by the terrorists to do them. Stop being a fool really that thinks this is normal to do, to slay an entire people. What the fuck man.

      • gedaliyah@lemmy.worldM
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        7 months ago

        You are not upset with me, you are upset with the definition of a word.

        Obviously we all want a peaceful world, but when you have a group like Hamas that believe their god wants them to kill anyone who is not their form of extremist religion, how can you end violence without eliminating them? Israel tried for decades to avoid this type if direct conflict. That avoidance cost them and led to the deadliest day in all Israeli history.

        • KeenFlame@feddit.nu
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          7 months ago

          Huh? No.

          There are literal international laws, and people who spend their entire life around the science of proportional military action. It’s so much more than a word you can define.

          It is after a genocide people wonder what the fuck happened. But a few wonders right the fuck now what the fuck is happening.

          Military petsonell over the world work with you know real horrible game theory politics considerations that are mentally insane and some of these military spheres has completely lost their shit and are currently spiraling into the TELLTALE TEXTBOOK definition of the cycle where they become destructive and the world suffers from the consequences for years.

          It is repeating history. I don’t hate a word, I hate that you defend it with no objective partials

    • magnusrufus@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      You said that very incorrectly. It’s not solely about numbers but numbers are absolutely a fundamental factor.