I don’t really see the difference between what you call patriotism and nationalism. It’s both identity politics in favour of the powerful. If I focus on “loving” my country, I might get distracted that both I as well as my siblings from other countries get exploited by the ruling class.
I get what they mean in that it’s a thin line between the two, especially in the US. I was recently talking to my dad, a Bernie Sanders voter who is about as left-leaning as I’ve ever seen, and he was talking about how after 9/11 happened the country really banded together and there was a real outpouring of patriotism. I told him that what I remembered from the days after 9/11 was that attacks against Jews doubled overnight, attacks on Muslims more than tripled, and increased against pretty much any other kind of minority you can think of.
American patriotism and nationalism is basically a “to-may-to, to-mah-to” situation. Patriotism in the US is defined by things like 9 year old kids pledging their undying loyalty to the flag of the country with a hand over their heart every morning at school.
There’s been a concerted effort to conflate the two in the US for decades, for example someone’s “support the troops” bumper sticker isn’t patriotism, it’s manufacturing consent for a nationalistic, hawkish foreign policy.
Like I said though, there is a difference, and it’s worth explaining.
I agree on all points, I just understand where that other person is coming from because when you’re told that America is patriotic when it’s actually just nationalism in red, white, and blue, it’s hard to spot the difference.
Like, I can be proud of my state for what they’ve done to help people, but I wouldn’t call it patriotism. I still see the government as the policies and actions of individuals with power, and that is something that should never be fully trusted lest we face the consequences that we are currently seeing as a possible near future from the actions of the party of Trump. I don’t care about America; I care about her people and what those individuals have accomplished alone and together. To quote a silly sci-fi movie series, “My loyalty is to the people. To democracy!”
There may seem to be a thin line, to you, between “I like who I am” and “I hate who you are,” but they are critically different. There’s a “thin line” between a lot of critical distinctions. Recognizing the difference is pretty important.
One way to think about it is that it’s similar to the difference between partisanship, a positive belief in the party you vote for that correlates with higher faith in democracy, and negative partisanship, a negative belief in parties that you vote against that correlates with dissatisfaction with democracy.
They’re both “forms of partisanship,” but they’re distinct and different. The way patriotism and nationalism are being used in this thread share similar affective features.
Pride in your nation (to me at least) is so intrinsically linked to the modern nation state that I can’t untangle it from nationalism. As such, it is always a tool for the powerful to override international class solidarity.
I can get if you’re tied to and have positive feelings towards a culture that you identify with. But the nation tries to replace that connection to a culture by:
Not making it opt-out (becoming stateless is such a disadvantage, if it’s even possible)
assimilating different cultures that actually don’t have too much in common. E.g. Danes and Mecklemburgians have way more in common culturally that Mecklemburgians with Bavarians.
Agree to disagree.
Care to expand because this seems like a pretty extreme position?
I don’t really see the difference between what you call patriotism and nationalism. It’s both identity politics in favour of the powerful. If I focus on “loving” my country, I might get distracted that both I as well as my siblings from other countries get exploited by the ruling class.
I thought I explained it already. You can love one thing without it automatically meaning you must hate something else.
I get what they mean in that it’s a thin line between the two, especially in the US. I was recently talking to my dad, a Bernie Sanders voter who is about as left-leaning as I’ve ever seen, and he was talking about how after 9/11 happened the country really banded together and there was a real outpouring of patriotism. I told him that what I remembered from the days after 9/11 was that attacks against Jews doubled overnight, attacks on Muslims more than tripled, and increased against pretty much any other kind of minority you can think of.
American patriotism and nationalism is basically a “to-may-to, to-mah-to” situation. Patriotism in the US is defined by things like 9 year old kids pledging their undying loyalty to the flag of the country with a hand over their heart every morning at school.
There’s been a concerted effort to conflate the two in the US for decades, for example someone’s “support the troops” bumper sticker isn’t patriotism, it’s manufacturing consent for a nationalistic, hawkish foreign policy.
Like I said though, there is a difference, and it’s worth explaining.
I agree on all points, I just understand where that other person is coming from because when you’re told that America is patriotic when it’s actually just nationalism in red, white, and blue, it’s hard to spot the difference.
Like, I can be proud of my state for what they’ve done to help people, but I wouldn’t call it patriotism. I still see the government as the policies and actions of individuals with power, and that is something that should never be fully trusted lest we face the consequences that we are currently seeing as a possible near future from the actions of the party of Trump. I don’t care about America; I care about her people and what those individuals have accomplished alone and together. To quote a silly sci-fi movie series, “My loyalty is to the people. To democracy!”
There may seem to be a thin line, to you, between “I like who I am” and “I hate who you are,” but they are critically different. There’s a “thin line” between a lot of critical distinctions. Recognizing the difference is pretty important.
And I said that I don’t believe that difference exists on the national level.
One way to think about it is that it’s similar to the difference between partisanship, a positive belief in the party you vote for that correlates with higher faith in democracy, and negative partisanship, a negative belief in parties that you vote against that correlates with dissatisfaction with democracy.
They’re both “forms of partisanship,” but they’re distinct and different. The way patriotism and nationalism are being used in this thread share similar affective features.
Pride in your nation (to me at least) is so intrinsically linked to the modern nation state that I can’t untangle it from nationalism. As such, it is always a tool for the powerful to override international class solidarity.
I can get if you’re tied to and have positive feelings towards a culture that you identify with. But the nation tries to replace that connection to a culture by: