Summary
German Chancellor Olaf Scholz and French President Emmanuel Macron held a call to discuss the potential implications of Donald Trump’s return to the U.S. presidency for Europe.
The leaders pledged to strengthen cooperation for a “more united, stronger, more sovereign Europe” in light of this possibility. Macron emphasized a commitment to European sovereignty while maintaining cooperation with the U.S. Additionally, German and French defense ministers plan to meet to coordinate on defense policies.
Trump’s ambiguous stance on Russia’s war in Ukraine and his critical view of NATO burden-sharing raise concerns in Europe about future U.S.-Europe relations.
You guys better ramp up arms production and switch to a partial wartime stance. Because Russia isn’t going to stop with Ukraine.
Invest in arms companies lol
They’ve got nukes though, and plenty of conventional fire power (compared to Ukraine when it was invaded).
They need to invest in a non US lead command structure as that’s all using US tech and personnel.
Yeah, they really need to do relying on my country (the US). We are officially fully compromised.
Europe needs to step up on Ukraine. NATO is out of the picture, the EU needs to stand in its place.
Europe needs to step up on Ukraine.
Realistically, I doubt the western european public opinions are ready to accept 20 year old kids coming home in a coffin. If we put boots on the ground, I expect the war to be more deadly than recent middle-east operations.
So while we could kick of Russia ass, I don’t think we’re ready to pay the political price, at least for Ukraine.
This is more about ramping up domestic arms production to fill the gap that is going to come from US production no longer going to Ukraine.
Ironically I think policy support would have been much easier had we put boots on the ground right away. There was initially enormous support for Ukraine, and sending out own soldiers would have given voters a continued vested interest in the war.
Not saying the outcome would have been better, and there is always the threat of nuclear war. However, it would totally changed the course and focus of elections, and my impression is that voters like it when politicians take risks, even if it doesn’t pan out (and even if it’s suicidally stupid).
and sending out own soldiers would have given voters a continued vested interest in the war.
As a veteran… You’re volunteering right?
Western Europe, yep, there’s not much appetite for that. Southern, neither, Northern, I wouldn’t count them out, Baltics will look to the North, Central (without Germany)… basically the only reason Poland didn’t put boots on the ground yet is NATO.
The French might get involved for dignity’s sake, but on a backfoot – special forces, long-range operations. Also sending French MREs is always a good idea.
EDIT: Oh, Italy. Meloni hates Putin’s guts, the FDI may go in even without appetite because well the “post” in “post-fascist” doesn’t mean that they’ve got rid of fascists’ admiration for war, just the more obvious self-defeating aspects. Struggles of national sovereignty seem to be right up their alley. Greece is too broke either way and Turkey will be on Turkey’s side.
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Lol. Maybe we can drown our enemies in paperwork.
That’s not entirely correct. While the US is without a doubt the biggest part of (and contributor to) NATO, it consists of a few other nations as well. But you are absolutely right that Europe needs to get their shit together because it is very likely that the US will scale down their NATO involvement
Trump’s ambiguous stance on Russia’s war in Ukraine and his critical view of NATO burden-sharing raise concerns in Europe about future U.S.-Europe relations.
Absolutely nothing ambiguous about it. Everyone knows where he stands. Exactly where every lapdog stands, behind and slightly off to the side of their master…
Everyone knows where he stands.
I strongly suspect that isn’t true. I think anti-Trump people know where he stands, but I bet a lot of pro-Trump people are about to be in for a big surprise.
Ah, yes…the old “leopards are eating people’s faces, but how was I supposed to know that it’d be my face?” bit.
I heard yesterday about how a lot of Imams in Michigan posed for selfies with him.
Listened to an interview, shortly after Binden stepped out, with a young Muslim Dem guy who was trying to drum up support in the DNC. He, and the people working with him, were really concerned about the alienation of the Muslim voting block. From what he was saying, it seems the community would usually vote Dem because the GOP are really hostile towards Muslims. But most traditionalist Muslims are hard C conservative, and on the surface level have a lot in common with the “Evangelical” nutjobs that seems to be running the show. He found some success in gaining wider support, but not enough to get a stance change on Gaza or to try and keep the Muslim voters with the Dems.
All that said…it wasn’t, according to exit polls, the Muslim voters that really killed them on this run. The biggest shift, from what I understand, was with the Latino community. And you might think “Well shit, Trump shit talks Latinos all the time, he’ll there was that shit he was saying about Puerto Rico not too long ago!”
But with any large and generalised community, there’s a lot of “in group hatred”. There’s always going to be an “other.”
“So what if Trump hates Puerto Ricans, I’m Cuban, his hate of this group won’t affect me…”
And this is how leopards ate their faces.
It’s the human condition to focus on the bad bit that’s most recent and to assume that you’ll be doing great in the future…
American here.
Please embargo us. Make it clear that you will not work with a fascist state.
I want our economy to be in fucking ruins come 2026, when 20 Republican senators are up for reelection. If we take the house and a 2/3rds majority in the Senate and we can end this shit in January 2027.
But we need the anger and pain the Republicans have tapped into to fuel the fire to wipe the GOP from existence. And we need the Dems to stop playing fair. We need to go scorched-earth on these motherfuckers.
There is no way in which the US will be embargod. Even under trump european nations will try to keep a mostly beneficial relation with the US due to the economic reliability and US strength in global politics. Sorry bud!
Fuck embargos, invade and liberate us. Return the favor we did for Germany 80 years ago.
in fucking ruins
It will somehow just be “the democrats fault” or those pesky brown invaders. And will fire up the base to vote in another shitclown.
Down economies are the number one predictor of whether a political party will be voted out.
No country would be insane enough to embargo the single greatest economic power on Earth.
How can buisness be done with a power so volatile?
Simple. Multinational corporate interests have significant influence in the government. The elected officials may change, but people like Charles Koch are still whispering in their ears.
The maga idiots don’t really pose a theat to buisnesses, just regular people.
Capitalism.
There will people who will become billionaires from that volatility.
And they’ll get away with it because no more SEC!
Honestly you sound like you are part of the problem with America if you would rather see your country ruined in some self-fulfilling prophecy just so that your political opponents will lose next election.
Think of it like chemotherapy, when you have to invest poison in order to get better.
I’ll gladly lose money and comfort for a few years to protect the people I love from what Trump and his minions will to do.
Every day they’re in power is a threat.
The EU didn’t embargo China and we were doing business with Russia even after Crimea, in some capacity we still are doing some business with Russia.
Close Cooperation with eachother. The USA can no longer be seen as a reliable partner with its wild ideological swings and a lack of strong commitment to the cause.
Make or break for a strong European State.
From a UK perspective we’re absolutely fucked due to Brexit. USA is unreliable, detached from the EU, what’s left? BRICS? Lol.
Shit.
BRICS? Lol.
It’d be BRICSUK then. Kinda close to Brexit. Just paint it as the next step after Brexit.
SUKBRICK sounds like a demeaning act that we brought on ourselves so lets go with that.
Everyone that voted for Cheeto Christ has willingly put their teeth to the curb, so SUKBRICK isn’t far off.
I love this. I will be using it as a punchline with my nerdy friends.
Ah the UK and EU are inexorably intertwined. Don’t stress too much. We’re still best buds.
Summary:
There will be lots of winded and inspired speeches. Nothing will happen, Europe will stay divided while each country seeks advantages on its own for petty short term gains. The populists will continue to gain footholds, and to conquer lands.
The only correct answer.
The EU needs a centralized military if it wants to survive
Maybe they need it, but that may not be happening. Over the past decade, Europe has been moving decisively to the right, just like the US is doing, which means less internal European cooperation and a further move toward sovereign nation states. The EU will maybe be able to maintain the overall trade cooperation among countries, but there’s very little chance of further European integration in other policy areas as it stands. Even the Schengen open-border cooperation is hanging by a thread.
Then the EU will fall and Europe will plunge into a new era of uncertainty and war
That’s basically what all our history is anyway
Yeah, it’s also exactly what the EU and it’s predecessors exist to prevent. We’ve never had a period of prolonged peace in Europe like we have now. And these utter fucking slabs want to undo it.
Yes, which is why I do think the foundational trade framework will remain and possibly strengthen. That’s what originally created the EU and ended many of the conflicts.
What I don’t see happening much going forward is countries giving up sovereignty on things like immigration and judicial issues or social and cultural issues. I also think stuff like a banking union and further economic integration are hanging by a thin, thin thread. There are simply too much disagreement and too many differences in how the economies work. It’s not like states within the US at all.
And then Putin can conquer them all…
less internal European cooperation and a further move toward sovereign nation states
I call dibs on being assassinated in Kosovo this time around.
Well that’s one good thing to come from the election. Best case scenario America just fucks itself over (and not the rest of the world) while giving all of the EU a common enemy to help further strengthen the bonds.
The bonds are deteriorating beyond repair. This won’t be enough. Trump win will embolden the rising far right in EU countries. There’s no good thing, I’m afraid. Sorry for my pessimism.
I don’t think you understand. The faction taking over won’t stop with the US. They want unfettered power. They’re well aware American military might exceeds the rest of the world combined by tenfold and will eventually use it to intimidate or destroy anyone in their way, after subjugating our own citizenry of course.
Yeah no one saw a need for this EIGHT YEARS AGO?!
Some did. Then most were happy to go back to sleep as Biden won in 2020. Trump was ignorantly considered a hiccup instead of the expression of a deeper issue with the US.
As the election today showed so did the US Democrats think things could just continue in the same way. And here we are again.
eight years ago war looked very different
I sincerely hope the European powers will overcome their internal politics and the rightward slide many of them seem to be on, and cooperate more closely for the world’s sake. I want to be hopeful for the climate and humanity.
Hopefully Canada will stick with Europe rather than the US ideologically, but with how things are going here we seem farther along on our rightward slide.
We are just as prone to right-wing propaganda here in Canada as Americans are too. I’m sure it’s much worse here in Alberta than elsewhere, but it is painfully obvious to me just how aggressive the social media propaganda machine is influencing the minds of everyone here. Yet, if I mention it, I am the crazy one who is being brainwashed… Of course.
I live in Saskatchewan and I was just talking to a “right wing” friend of mine about this very issue. I had gone on a diatribe about right-wing conservatives in the US and she was getting a little upset thinking I was upset with her as a “Canadian right-winger”. So I pointed out to her that she isn’t actually “right-wing”. In fact very few people in Canada except for some nut-jobs who want to bring Trumpism to Canada are right-wing as the U.S. would describe it.
Our typical right-winger, including some very good friends of mine, are conservative, but not anti-abortion, hand-maid’s tale, anti-immigrant conservatives. Our right-wing would be considered liberal to the United States and the only reason most people here think they have to defend Trump is because they nominally share the adjective of “conservative” even though they’re VASTLY different levels of right-wing.
They’re innundated with American news 24-7 and don’t make any distinction between what they believe and what MAGA believes, but when you ask them specificially what they believe in, it’s far far far closer to an American’s concept of liberalism than of MAGA.
If Europe wants to keep the front line east of Ukraine, they better get on that right now. That front line will not stop at the western border.
I sincerely hope they’re ready to hold the world together. Americans have screwed ourselves.
One of the few things that you can rely on is the Europeans will provide no unity or leadership.
They’re not. They’re ready to screw themselves as well.
Get ready for Donnie to epically suck Putin’s cock. Fuck, I hate this country.
He’ll start buying russian natural resources at a dollar on the dime and gas prices will drop a little bit and all the dumb idiots that voted for him will drool and smile because “ooga booga feels good” while he pulls out of nato and the world marches towards WWIII
He’ll start buying russian natural resources at a dollar on the dime
How does that make any fucking sense when he wants to drill on US land? Do you guys even think about the shit you post before you post it?
Last year the US imported ~8 million barrels of oil per day from 86 countries and exported about ~10 million barrels per day to 160 countries. Why didn’t we simply net it out at 2 million and stop all imports? Setting up additional drilling infrastructure not only takes time, but it’s often far more profitable to import/export over sea or intl borders. Why would we stop the profitable export of oil and prevent the profitable purchase of oil to spend time and money just moving oil across the country?
You’re moving goalposts. You claimed that we’d pay MORE (dollar on the dime). Drilling locally means supply increases considerably. Supply going up with demand staying in place means price drops, there’s no reason to pay “dollar on the dime”… and doing so would actually mean price increases.
Also, most exports are of the crude for processing where we purchase the refined for use. We had a decent deal with Canada to make a boatload of oil export/import in that exact purpose. But then Biden shut down the pipeline that would have made that much more efficient.
Nah at this point, Putin is ready to fuck Donnie in the pooper.
Not needing help from America would be great if our own governments weren’t filled with fascists.
Try to give some nukes to every eastern border country.
Poland already said they’ll get the bomb asap. Not like we have anything to lose.
