After months of getting close, the relationship between Trump and his so-called ‘first buddy’ has become ‘fraught,’ according to a New York Times reporter
I’m just reporting what I’m hearing, I didn’t poll every trans person out there on this. I can’t share my personal communications, but here are two public trans people discussing this over a month ago, if that helps confirm I’m not pulling this from nowhere:
It’s shit like this that makes me understand the difference between a Leftist, a Liberal, and a Tankie.
A Liberal is pro-LGBT rights when it suits them, but will happily queer-code their enemies because at the end of the day, some people are more equal than others.
A Leftist is a normal sane person who can tell which way the wind is blowing, prays for the revolution to come, and doesn’t care about what goes on in another comrade’s bedroom as long as it’s all consensual, unless they’re specifically invited in which case they may bring pizza and a flashdrive of a pirated copy of something classy and colorful to watch when the festivities are over.
And the Tankie would approve of the “God Hates [Slur]” signs, if only they said “Karl Marx”, “The State”, or really anything remnisicent of the kind of boots this particular group likes the lick, instead of “God”, but until that happens they’re allies… for now.
Two tragic truths, Horseshoe Theory is real, and the Democrats are Diet Republicans.
“God Hates [Slur]” signs, if only they said “Karl Marx”, “The State”, or really anything remnisicent of the kind of boots this particular group likes the lick, instead of “God”, but until that happens they’re allies… for now.
I have a lot of experience (too much tbh) with people that position as communists or revolutionaries, but still have conservative brain worms about gay/trans people. Some will self crit when confronted about it, others take the criticism like a personal attack and double down on bigotry.
That response is where the key difference is between someone that’s principled but uninformed and someone who’s just a ‘patriotic’ socialist leaking brainworms.
The instances routinely smeared as ‘rife with tankies’ have generally been the best about actually consistently enforcing rules against bigotry on Lemmy, and in the case of hexbear have been pretty ahead of the curve when it comes to trans inclusion at least from my experience. I only thought to start including pronoun tags in my display name because I liked seeing how normalized it was in their comms.
I have genuinely met people who claimed that LGBT Rights are “Wrong, because it forces Western values on other cultures and are therefore imperialist.”
Me too, I’m unfortunately even related to some, it’s not great.
Anyone on the train on LGBT rights being ‘western decadence’ or imposing over other cultures has actually internalized the (misogynist, homophobic, transphobic) social order imposed by western colonization and industrial-era “westernization” is the natural/traditional way of things. Westernization for many colonized countries meant importing or reinforcing a more misogynist order as that kind of hierarchy was more compliant with capital.
I believe you that someone will think that way about the joke in the thread here on Lemmy, but imo that requires an assumption that I wish people wouldn’t make. Unfortunately I am unable to follow that screenshot you posted. If it contains a joke I am not seeing it.
You asked women or trans people to say otherwise if they disagreed with you- I’m a woman, my friends are trans people, and there are two more trans people as well. Like I said, I can’t poll everyone, but neither can you. You can choose to do with that information what you like, but there’s literally no way to prove this definitively.
As for the screenshot, the order is middle-top-bottom reading order (which I agree is confusing) or smallest font to biggest font. The middle is an account using “Elonia” as a joke, the top is a trans woman who quotes it calling it out for transmisogyny, and the bottom is a trans man replying in agreement with the trans woman.
fwiw I’m a trans woman and I think that it’s still bigotry even if the target is a shitty person. Come up with a more creative insult, it’s not hard to mock shitty people for being shitty without being misogynistic or transphobic.
Thanks for clearing up the post order. I get it now.
I think this is an overreaction to call this person a piece of shit for the joke. It probably took 5 seconds to think of and type. Which tbh so did that reply, which reads more hatefully to me than the joke.
I didn’t mean to imply that if you cannot prove it definitively, you’re “wrong”. These are all opinions. I expanded more on mine in a novel I just wrote in another reply to you (sorry for that length btw)
I appreciate the civil tone here regardless. I know that in the past I’ve seen a lot of conversations like this devolve quickly and I was kinda nervous that could happen 😬
I’m not here to judge the response of the trans people in that post, that’s their business as far as I’m concerned, just posting that it exists. (I happened to be aware of these folks talking about it so I figured it was easy to cite, I’m sure there are plenty of varied responses that are more diplomatic online)
I appreciate the tone as well, but I think it’s something that’s easier when you’re more removed from the issue. As a cis woman, I have the luxury of not being as directly affected by this joke. You can see from my example that trans people talking to other trans people may be much more hurt and angry. If they were trying to explain this in a thread like this, would it be as easy to hold a civil tone? Would someone in your position have the same patience with someone expressing their pain more bluntly as you have with me? Just some things to think about.
I mean, if someone told me I was a piece of shit for defending that joke in the way I did here, I would probably think they are emotional and irrational and maybe a piece of shit themselves. The conversation would be over at that moment and that’s to be expected. If they were respectful about it, it should go well. I buy that systemically downtrodden people should get more leeway in the way they express their anger, but that doesn’t work in a one on one setting. Tell me I’m a piece of shit baselessly, you’ve shut down the conversation and transferred your emotions to me. Now my guard is up and I want nothing to do with you. This happened to me more than a couple of times and my patience with it is quite low because I have zero reason to convince a dickhead that I’m not one
I’m just reporting what I’m hearing, I didn’t poll every trans person out there on this. I can’t share my personal communications, but here are two public trans people discussing this over a month ago, if that helps confirm I’m not pulling this from nowhere:
It’s shit like this that makes me understand the difference between a Leftist, a Liberal, and a Tankie.
A Liberal is pro-LGBT rights when it suits them, but will happily queer-code their enemies because at the end of the day, some people are more equal than others.
A Leftist is a normal sane person who can tell which way the wind is blowing, prays for the revolution to come, and doesn’t care about what goes on in another comrade’s bedroom as long as it’s all consensual, unless they’re specifically invited in which case they may bring pizza and a flashdrive of a pirated copy of something classy and colorful to watch when the festivities are over.
And the Tankie would approve of the “God Hates [Slur]” signs, if only they said “Karl Marx”, “The State”, or really anything remnisicent of the kind of boots this particular group likes the lick, instead of “God”, but until that happens they’re allies… for now.
Two tragic truths, Horseshoe Theory is real, and the Democrats are Diet Republicans.
I have a lot of experience (too much tbh) with people that position as communists or revolutionaries, but still have conservative brain worms about gay/trans people. Some will self crit when confronted about it, others take the criticism like a personal attack and double down on bigotry.
That response is where the key difference is between someone that’s principled but uninformed and someone who’s just a ‘patriotic’ socialist leaking brainworms.
The instances routinely smeared as ‘rife with tankies’ have generally been the best about actually consistently enforcing rules against bigotry on Lemmy, and in the case of hexbear have been pretty ahead of the curve when it comes to trans inclusion at least from my experience. I only thought to start including pronoun tags in my display name because I liked seeing how normalized it was in their comms.
I have genuinely met people who claimed that LGBT Rights are “Wrong, because it forces Western values on other cultures and are therefore imperialist.”
Me too, I’m unfortunately even related to some, it’s not great.
Anyone on the train on LGBT rights being ‘western decadence’ or imposing over other cultures has actually internalized the (misogynist, homophobic, transphobic) social order imposed by western colonization and industrial-era “westernization” is the natural/traditional way of things. Westernization for many colonized countries meant importing or reinforcing a more misogynist order as that kind of hierarchy was more compliant with capital.
“Horseshoe theory” is a straw man attempt to defang the left.
I used to believe that, but then I met tankies.
I believe you that someone will think that way about the joke in the thread here on Lemmy, but imo that requires an assumption that I wish people wouldn’t make. Unfortunately I am unable to follow that screenshot you posted. If it contains a joke I am not seeing it.
You asked women or trans people to say otherwise if they disagreed with you- I’m a woman, my friends are trans people, and there are two more trans people as well. Like I said, I can’t poll everyone, but neither can you. You can choose to do with that information what you like, but there’s literally no way to prove this definitively.
As for the screenshot, the order is middle-top-bottom reading order (which I agree is confusing) or smallest font to biggest font. The middle is an account using “Elonia” as a joke, the top is a trans woman who quotes it calling it out for transmisogyny, and the bottom is a trans man replying in agreement with the trans woman.
fwiw I’m a trans woman and I think that it’s still bigotry even if the target is a shitty person. Come up with a more creative insult, it’s not hard to mock shitty people for being shitty without being misogynistic or transphobic.
Thanks for clearing up the post order. I get it now.
I think this is an overreaction to call this person a piece of shit for the joke. It probably took 5 seconds to think of and type. Which tbh so did that reply, which reads more hatefully to me than the joke.
I didn’t mean to imply that if you cannot prove it definitively, you’re “wrong”. These are all opinions. I expanded more on mine in a novel I just wrote in another reply to you (sorry for that length btw)
I appreciate the civil tone here regardless. I know that in the past I’ve seen a lot of conversations like this devolve quickly and I was kinda nervous that could happen 😬
I’m not here to judge the response of the trans people in that post, that’s their business as far as I’m concerned, just posting that it exists. (I happened to be aware of these folks talking about it so I figured it was easy to cite, I’m sure there are plenty of varied responses that are more diplomatic online)
I appreciate the tone as well, but I think it’s something that’s easier when you’re more removed from the issue. As a cis woman, I have the luxury of not being as directly affected by this joke. You can see from my example that trans people talking to other trans people may be much more hurt and angry. If they were trying to explain this in a thread like this, would it be as easy to hold a civil tone? Would someone in your position have the same patience with someone expressing their pain more bluntly as you have with me? Just some things to think about.
I mean, if someone told me I was a piece of shit for defending that joke in the way I did here, I would probably think they are emotional and irrational and maybe a piece of shit themselves. The conversation would be over at that moment and that’s to be expected. If they were respectful about it, it should go well. I buy that systemically downtrodden people should get more leeway in the way they express their anger, but that doesn’t work in a one on one setting. Tell me I’m a piece of shit baselessly, you’ve shut down the conversation and transferred your emotions to me. Now my guard is up and I want nothing to do with you. This happened to me more than a couple of times and my patience with it is quite low because I have zero reason to convince a dickhead that I’m not one