- Harry Potter Fandoms will be a part of the Fediverse one way or the other. It’s better to shape this development rather than being overwhelmed by it.
- Harry Potter Fandoms are a huge opportunity for the Fediverse. Look at what the collaboration of Lego and Disney brought to Fortnite. People want to spend time in places, in which they feel familiar and welcomed. I’m not saying collaborating with big companies here, what I’m saying is: the Fediverse needs to be filled with life and we have to use that opportunity first, before others do.
- Don’t throw the opinions of J.K. Rowling and its fandom in one bucket. It’s one of the biggest in the world, there is a broad range of opinions and people.
- The Fediverse needs more projects that immediately make sense to people. Projects that you tell a person about, and they say: “Oh, yeah, that makes sense.” Mastodon in comparison to Twitter was such a thing: its billionaire proof. Everybody gets why that’s a good thing. A better, more open place to build Harry Potter fan sites could be another.
- The project (including other places like this that may follow) could also become another attractive place on the Fediverse for the open-source community. Who wouldn’t be excited to help build the world of Harry Potter?
All of this is of course up for discussion. I’m a very stubborn person but I’m also able to listen ;)
Edit: I removed “queer friendly” from the description. Its not a claim that I can fully uphold anyways. Instead, it has a no tolerancy policy against transphobia, which is more clear and probably easier to enforce.
Here is the link: https://diagonlemmy.social
Man, the gatekeeping is wild these days.
You’re allowed to like a story you grew up with as a child and also dislike its bigot author, they’re not mutually exclusive. Talking about Harry Potter doesn’t give Rowling magical transphobe powers; Voldemort logic doesn’t work in real life. The rightsholders have already taken great strides to distance the HP property from Rowling and adopt it to be more inclusive in spite of her TERF bullshit. It’s not a hate crime to like a story about child wizards anymore.
If people want to geek out about some books or movies they like, they should be allowed to do so without the insinuation that they’re by default enabling transphobia or something. But the beauty of the Fediverse is that your community has just as much right to exist as any other, so as long as you can maintain a healthy, hate-free community that isn’t posting a bunch of pro-Rowling bullshit, I say go for it. Anyone who would block your instance for merely existing probably isn’t worth your time, anyway.
Let me pose a hypothetical to you then. If the transphobic rhetoric of JKR escalated, and transphobes took action, like just started doing even more harm to the trans community than they already have. At what point would you say “you know what, I’ve had enough of HP. It’s just distasteful to engage with this anymore”.
Let’s say a trans person enters, participates, and becomes a part of your HP fan community. What if they are directly, or even indirectly, harmed by JKR’s transphobic rhetoric? If you continue to engage with how great the content is, while ignoring what just happened, was that trans person, who was harmed, ever really part of your community? Or were you just paying lip service to your community’s inclusivity?
These hypotheticals can happen, it’s not even remotely outside the realm of possibility. At what point is engaging in HP fandom distasteful?
At what point is engaging in HP fandom distasteful?
I’d say when the material that makes up the HP franchise, itself, becomes distasteful. I’m not hugely invested into HP, but last I’ve seen of it, the franchise is LGBT-inclusive, directly in spite of Rowling. I see no reason why one shouldn’t be allowed to enjoy the story.
Yeah, Rowling may still profit from it. But the bitter pill is that she’s allowed to. People are entitled to make money from their IPs, it’s how society enables creatives. Just because somebody’s a shit person doesn’t mean they’re not allowed to earn a living. And realistically, she’s going to make money from it, anyway. Blocking a Lemmy instance has literally zero impact on Rowling’s bottom line, making the act little more than posturing.
The HP material, itself, is fine. And the HP community largely seems inclusive toward LGBT fans. I can’t think of any reason to consider liking it or talking about it to be distasteful. Rowling’s a TERF shitbag, and I think most of the HP community is generally onboard with that notion, too.
Idk the slavery, the goblins, the blatant love of all the worst parts of 19th century high British society… The world is pretty wild.
And she doesn’t really set those things up to challenge them in the books, you’re just supposed to accept that they’re there and be fine with them.
Yeah, it’s these things that make it harder to enjoy. She actively put pretty bad things in alongside the fun, whimsy, and magical.
I’d say when the material that makes up the HP franchise, itself, becomes distasteful. I’m not hugely invested into HP, but last I’ve seen of it, the franchise is LGBT-inclusive, directly in spite of Rowling. I see no reason why one shouldn’t be allowed to enjoy the story.
It’s not about ”allowing” people to enjoy the story. I’m only pointing out consequences both intended and not intended incurred by choices to engage with, and inherently validate, an author who has engaged in transphobic hateful rhetoric.
Engaging in communities that reinforce a positive viewpoint of a story written by a transphobic hateful person is harmful to those communities in ways that are both overt and subtle. If you are okay with that, then at least don’t deny it.
Yeah, Rowling may still profit from it.
I never mentioned boycotting her material because it somehow might starve her of profit. You are obfuscating the argument from the main point. This farcical argument is often brought up as if the harm that the trans community experiences from JKR’s rhetoric is directly related to JKR’s wallet. It’s not. It’s her hate speech and the complacency around that hate speech that is the issue.
Rowling’s a TERF shitbag, and I think most of the HP community is generally onboard with that notion, too.
Obviously I agree on Rowling being a TERF shitbag. And in all truth, I’m sure the majority of the HP community aren’t blatant transphobes. The problem is not in any obvious transphobia exhibited by the HP community, but rather what an HP community inherently must ignore in order to enjoy the material. To continue to find the HP franchise tasteful, you must ignore the hateful rhetoric of it’s author, and the repercussions of said rhetoric.
Again, if you’re okay with that, then I’d encourage you to admit that to at least yourself.
Engaging in communities that reinforce a positive viewpoint of a story written by a transphobic hateful person is harmful to those communities in ways that are both overt and subtle.
How? If the community at large is against Rowing and is inclusive in defiance of her stance, then it would seem to me that they have enough self-awareness to take care of themselves and mitigate any of this nebulous harm.
Because continuing to engage with her content is a form of endorsement of her viewpoints (As mentioned in my previous comment, it is not inherently monetary support).
By saying, ”I enjoy the content. I don’t support her views, but I’m not going to go out of my way to condemn her, and I’m going to continue to engage in positive discourse about her work.", you are indicating “I don’t stand against trans bigotry unless publicly pressured to do so. I value the entertainment of her work more than dislike the harm my turning a blind eye to the harm the author causes with her hate speech.” Most commonly followed by “I’m just going to pretend it’s okay because it makes me uncomfortable to think otherwise. I’m not a bad person, and refuse to even acknowledge that I might be wrong here.”
This simple line of thought that is understandably easy to fall into is often used amongst outright hate groups, transphobes in this case, to empathize with people within this community.
With that empathy built off of a mutual dislike for the trans people making them feel bad for just wanting to like their little HP fan club, they form a bond of an us vs them mentality, where the “us"becomes less and less about their love of the content, and more and more about their dislike of the " other.”
Part of this discourse I’m engaging in here isn’t in the hope that somehow I can dissuade anyone from joining this community. People gonna do what they’re gonna do. But pointing out the potential pitfalls of founding and perpetuating this community is meant to instill in those that join an awareness of exactly WHY trans people and their allies are so upset that people are willing to turn a deaf ear to their voices when they tell you to think more carefully on this, to reconsider your position.
then it would seem to me that they have enough self-awareness to take care of themselves and mitigate any of this nebulous harm.
They don’t though. Because to mitigate the harm would mean having a more difficult discussion on how JKR’s works and awkward stumblings around inclusivity in her works have been nothing but tokenism. A facade of inclusivity made in bad faith. But that’s not what this community would ever want to do, because to do so would be to point out exactly what I’ve been arguing this entire time, that to ignore the fact thst you are celebrating the works created by a bigot means you silently are endorsing her, even if you vocally condemn her.
People claim to care, and heck, words matter. But words only matter inasmuch as what those words do, or inspire people to do. JKR’s words obviously have inspired a lot of people in a lot of different ways. But what have they ulimately inspired people to do really?
At best, they inspired people to get together and engage in conversations about a fantasy world, maybe come up with amazing stories of their own. At worst, they inspired some people to go out and make some poor trans person want to kill themselves.
The question I pose is, does the good really outweigh the bad? I don’t think so.
Because continuing to engage with her content is a form of endorsement of her viewpoints
This is a pretty significant leap that doesn’t seem realistic.
Would you stay at Trump hotel if you liked the scenery nearby?
Lol. How so? Seems like a lot of people here singing the praises of the work while condemning the author have a pretty hard time squaring with themselves that maybe enjoying the work somehow makes trans people feel unseen, unheard?
Or maybe it’s just that you don’t actually care.
Let me ask you this. Tell me what companies and what countries pass this purity test? Where is the line drawn? If someone spends money on leisure in the states for example, are they supporting racism, transphobia etc due to their moneys going to states like Florida, Texas etc? What about people that buy video games even though companies are known to work their employees into depression and have harmful ethics regarding female employees with sexual harassment? Are people that buy games endorsing that culture? How should those victims view fans that continue to make those companies money? What about companies that outsource their manufacturing processes to China? Some companies have put suicide nets to prevent employees from unaliving themselves. Many companies use China for manufacturing. By purchasing products are we endorsing that culture that has led to people taking their own lives?
Whoa, lots of whataboutisms going on here. I don’t think you’re making these questions in good faith, but hey, I’m always willing to field questions from z’haters.
If someone spends money on leisure in the states for example, are they supporting racism, transphobia etc due to their moneys going to states like Florida, Texas etc?
No, only if they knowingly support the businesses of those who are racists, transphobes, and other hate groups. Yeah, their tax money goes towards very hateful politicians, but as long as their beliefs don’t align with them, then they’re just people trying to survive in a state run by shitty politicians.
What about people that buy video games even though companies are known to work their employees into depression and have harmful ethics regarding female employees with sexual harassment?
Yeah, don’t play those games, and let those companies know why! Video games and entertainment aren’t inherently necessary to your survival, and if you knowingly purchase, and engage in positive rhetoric around those games, you are endorsing the bad practices that made that game possible. I know game devs just need to make a living in a shitty industry, but that industry will remain shitty unless you hit those corporate asshats where it hurts, and the only place it hurts is their wallets. It sucks because the devs don’t deserve to be dragged down monetarily with the asshats up top, but that’s the way the capitalist cookie crumbles right now, and the only moral choice in my view is to not buy those games at all.
Are people that buy games endorsing that culture?
If they buy those games specifically, while also knowing about the disgusting business practices that were engaged in during it’s production? Yes.
How should those victims view fans that continue to make those companies money?
As ignorant participants in a flawed corporate infrastructure in which they are trapped in at best, and uncaring knowing participants at worst. If these employees speak out, they are left without a means of a living wage income due to horrific minimum wage laws and no social safety net. I’ve met people in the video game industry, gotten beers with them, talked with them, most of them didn’t know how toxic it was going to be when they got into it. But they invested so much time, energy, and usually also money in their education, that they have little recourse now to abandon their job for my “purity test”, as you put it. I am sympathetic towards their plight because their livelihood and lifestyle depends on it. The same cannot be said of those wanting to create a little HP fan club.
What about companies that outsource their manufacturing processes to China?
Ah yes, the big elephant in the room, right? You can’t get away from Chinese products, their everywhere! You can’t live cheaply without China’s horrible work practices, right? All the while they additionally suppress public forms of dissent, have a literal dictator for life as a “president”, have displaced the Dalai Llama, have imprisoned dissidents in Hong Kong, refused to acknowledge the statehood of Tibet and Taiwan, not to mention the horrific treatment of the Uyghur Muslims. So yeah, it’s a shitty situation and in the US, many goods are difficult to find that don’t come from China, and most cheap goods are produced in China. So what about that?
My take on it is if you can do without Chinese products, do it. If you don’t need it for work or school, then yeah, you get a pass from my “purity test”. If you can’t afford to buy a more expensive product that doesn’t come from China, and again, you really actually need it (and don’t simply want it), then buy it. Then go out and condemn the Chinese Communist Party regardless. Condemn them loudly and in public, on the internet and IRL, as often as the subject comes up. Bring up the topic from time to time if it bothers you, and it should.
Ultimately your bad faith arguments are basically saying “There’s a lot of bad in the world, and if you do any of the things I mentioned, your hands aren’t clean! You’re not holier than me, you’re just like the rest of us, so STFU!” But that’s the whole thing, I’m as disgusted with this shit as the rest of you, the only difference is I refuse to STFU about it and say nothing.
I’m not blind to the fact that some people are in bad situations they can’t get out of. Capitalism as a whole and the history of racism, homophobia, and transphobia that have plagued human history has put us all in a shit situation that we can only play our small role in, and survive in. But that doesn’t mean things can’t change. Slavery was once thought a necessary evil that propped up the American economy during the 19th century, the Feminist movement was ridiculed as promoting an “unnatural” restructuring of the existing social hierarchy, Racism was silently accepted by the majority until the Civil Rights movements upended the status quo, and Homosexuality only became more socially accepted after the Stonewall Riots occurred and people died for their right to personhood. Societal change has never been solved by a comfortable nice conversation or sticking your head in the sand. It has always happened because disenfranchised people stood the fuck up, said something, and did something, and very often this had to happen many many times over before society at large got the fucking message, heard their voices, and changed (we’re still addressing all these issues on some level or another right now, and our rhetoric around these subjects continues to change, overall for the better, thanks to these initial challenges to the status quo).).
Now, you could argue that joining an HP fan club can do the same from the inside, but, obviously, I disagree. Many of these aforementioned movements didn’t succeed because they ignored the bigotry around them (though trust me, many of them wanted to, they tried, and they failed). These movements only succeeded when they called out the hatred, bigotry, and INDIFFERENCE for what it was over and over and over again.
So…what about your next whataboutism?
I feel like most of what you said there can just be directly copy-pasted to the sidebar.
I love Harry Potter, what are you gonna do, block me? /s
For me all the hate Rowling gets just helps to make this brand bigger ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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You’re not hosting a Tucker Carlson server to praise alt-right values
They may as well, to the kids on lemmy, they’re the exact same thing. There’s absolutely no nuance here at all. The hive-mind dictates what governs the outrage.
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When I was growing up, a lot of queer kids loved HP. There is a literal potion in the books that completely changes you to another person, including sex. I know a lot of millenial trans people who were able to come out referencing that potion and scene and how they could relate or wish they had that potion.
Imo, the books aren’t that good. For elementary and middle schoolers, sure, but I don’t think JK Rowling is a good author or world builder. I believe the IP/franchise relied heavily on the audience and Rowling backstabbed her queer fans. The same goes for the new game. It’s more open world drivel and I think the only way it got this big is because idiots kept talking about it.
With all of that said, having a community on lemmy that is about Harry Potter, and they are clearly pro-trans/queer, leftists/progressives, and ban any alt-right shitters then that is very good and powerful. It’s so powerful to get more HP fans in more leftist spaces so they can incept those ideas.
It’s so powerful to get more HP fans in more leftist spaces so they can incept those ideas.
That could prove to be harder than expected. I tried to reach out to r/harrypotter but they won’t let me put an advertisement post there :( Turns out that not so surprisingly, these fansites are kind of closed up themselves and until they open themselves up to AP, too, they will be very reluctant to any fediverse clones of them …
I’m now trying to reach out to other fansites. Let’s see.
That’s reddit. They don’t want their users to bleed and the mods that are left are scabs. It will be similar with other sites and it can feel like spam. The best thing you can do is populate the lemmy with HP info and hope it kicks off one day
Divorcing the author from the work is rather challenging when that author is a living billionaire who makes money whenever you buy any kind of merchandise of their work. While pirating their trademarks without paying is in principle harmless, the moment you cross over into, say, paying money for Harry Potter Lego or Harry Potter Fortnite skins, you are then immediately funding the author’s hate campaigns
The instance name is clever, but I think you will find the concept embarrassing in hindsight. I would recommend not doubling down on the cognitive dissonance
People don’t seem to realize that their consumption of a product is seen by its beneficiaries.
Sure not YOU directly, but when someone sees “oh this place also set up something dedicated solely to the thing I made, they must really like me and approve of the things I do/say!” and others who agree with their shitty views think “oh they agree too, otherwise why promote it?”
Is it possible to separate the creatOR from the creatION? Yes. But not for everyone, and many of those who can’t will see your support as support of their own shitty ideals that match the creators’.
Sure, you may not be antisemitic, but the country club you go to for lunch sure is. Go ahead and pretend you’re not supporting them I guess.
Is it possible to separate the creatOR from the creatION? Yes. But not for everyone, and many of those who can’t will see your support as support of their own shitty ideals that match the creators’.
If it would be that easy, yes. But you ignore that H.P. does have a cultural value to it. Now you could try to re-build this, but first of all: it will be pretty hard to come up with something that no one feels offended by. And second of all: it will be pretty hard to come up with something that is equally popular.
For me, this is about post-structuralism vs. structuarlism. The current zeigeist is all about “deconstruction”, but if you de-construct everything, you are left with nothing. You need to build something new and that structure will always leave some room to deconstruct.
So I’m for leaving some of these cultural structures even if they are in parts worth overcoming. In case of the social web, which the Fediverse tries to create: it will not work without some kind of cultural structure on which it is build. People don’t want to spent time in a non-place, the Metaverse already failed because of that (at least its first try).
Post-structuralism is bad. Its anti-liberal and currently a big problem on the left imo.
I love to be able to reclaim works from their hateful authors, especially cultural ones. I’m a big fan of Lovecraft, and that dude was hateful. He makes JK Rowling look sweet and kindly. But it’s a lot easier to reclaim the narrative and make it a part of our culture when the author is literally dead.
Lovecraft is a cornerstone of modern fiction, despite being a bigot. We can acknowledge how he was a terrible person, even analyze it, but we know that our enjoyment of Lovecraftian fiction isn’t benefiting Lovecraft’s hateful causes, especially because the work is public domain.
In contrast, JK Rowling is not only still alive, she is active and vocal about her hatred, how she spends her money towards hate, and how she considers support of Harry Potter in light of her hate to be support of her vile views.
Consumption of media is not a passive action. Even if you do not actively give any money to the franchise, promoting the franchise encourages other people to do so, and then their money goes to fund hate.
I understand that HP is important to a lot of people. It was a cultural phenomenon. But we aren’t leaving it behind just because JK Rowling said something offensive. We’re leaving it behind because the author is actively using our consumption to fund hate and campaigning to deny rights to trans people.
There are plenty of other forms of media, new and old, that aren’t being piloted by known bigots. If you want a cultural backbone, using one that is currently controlled by a bigot will probably make a lot of trans people feel unwelcome at best and at worst, if HP continues to be a cultural phenomenon on a large scale JK Rowling will use the platform and the money to further the oppression of transgender rights.
I love to be able to reclaim works from their hateful authors, especially cultural ones. I’m a big fan of Lovecraft, and that dude was hateful. He makes JK Rowling look sweet and kindly. But it’s a lot easier to reclaim the narrative and make it a part of our culture when the author is literally dead.
Agreed. The athmosphere he creates is great but that dude was really problematic.
I understand that HP is important to a lot of people. It was a cultural phenomenon. But we aren’t leaving it behind just because JK Rowling said something offensive. We’re leaving it behind because the author is actively using our consumption to fund hate and campaigning to deny rights to trans people.
Sure, we find ourselves in a pickle, there. On the one hand, she is actively harming people and this will stay this way until it eventually becomes part of the public domain.
However, boycotting Harry Potter also comes as a price that, at least I would argue, also hurts minorities. Because the places create structure, which protects vulnarable people.
Why don’t we replace it with something else that does the same? Well, because in my opinion, Harry Potter culturally serves as a mythologization of the digital. People use it to understand the digital world. In past centuries, humans always made up stories and myths to understand complex concepts. The same thing is happening with the digital world and Harry Potter is one of the first to do this. It has a unique and central societal purpose.
That doesn’t mean that it can be improved, as can be seen in Hogwarts Legacy, which is kind of progressive, and also still slightly antisemetic, which is not so great, BUT I think overall the books still do much more good for vulnarable people than anything Rowling does against them, if she wants it or not.
So at the end of my line of thought, I always end up with two options: either create something new that does the same thing as H.P. while being more progressive but still hugely popular (which is hard to impossible), or to use H.P. and build on top of it to make it more modern (which is much easier).
What I would like to see more in these discussion is the question how EFFECTIVE Rowlings actions really are and if boycotting doesn’t hurt more than it helps.
Harry Potter spaces are not unique in creating structure. There are tons of fandoms, with millions of members. It’s not the first modern fandom by any means either. It’s not like if HP suddenly disappeared there wouldn’t be any fandoms of equivalent or larger size to provide “structure” to vulnerable people. Lots of them have more queer people in them too, and less transphobia.
I’m not sure what makes Harry Potter uniquely digital in your mind either. I’m sure you can interpret it as being about that, but I don’t think that’s the interpretation most people walk away with. Even if it really is a lens some people use to understand the Internet or whatnot, I certainly don’t think it’s the first story to be used in that way… There are a lot of stories that can claim that title that far predate Harry Potter, many of which have fandoms of their own.
I just don’t think HP is an essential backbone of culture. It’s important to a lot of people, for sure. And I can’t imagine what it’s like to realize that the creator of a work that’s so important to you is a terrible person. That has got to be a really shitty situation to be in. But there are other fandoms out there. There’s other great fiction, written by authors who won’t weaponize your consumption against minorities. It’s not a dichotomy of either you embrace Harry Potter or you must write your own.
But what are these other franchises? I seriously don’t know any that strike the same nerve as H.P.
Why don’t we replace it with something else that does the same?
This, it is our duty as people with good taste in media to promote better and less popular books to children. Earthsea by leguin, his dark materials by Pullman etc. hundreds of better books out there filling the same niche
But none of them is anywhere near the popularity of Harry Potter. In the german-speaking area, his dark material and Earthsea are even less common.
idk anything about german literature, i’m russian :( but when i was small i really liked the books momo and neverending story
Well, as always I’ll recommend our small existing community !harrypotter@literature.cafe
Literature.cafe is a lovely instance, Gabe the admin is a very nice person.
Good luck with your instance, I’ll probably visit
direct comm subscribe link !harrypotter@literature.cafe
fyi, Mbin now can utilize the standard ! format
Thank you Mbin expert
I second that, happy to hear Gabe is still around, gotta head over there!
Since he is being brought up, you should read exactly what Gabe said about the HP community. Clearly seems uncomfortable by the entire concept.
Gabe was also okay with us keeping the community there. I asked him on Matrix. If you want evidence, they appointed one of my alts as mod, which he shouldn’t have done if he wasn’t okay with the community.
We were ready to move the community elsewhere if Gabe would have preferred us to.
Thanks for the link, and yeah I devoured the books back in the day but wouldn’t recommend them or talk well about them today because the writer went apeshit pro TERF and more. I mean WTF.
Thanks :)
The more the merrier. I will check it out sometime if I find the time.
love this! i’m trans and honestly harry potter was such a big reason why i’m still here. it was one of the only things i loved when i was still in the closet and between starkid, leaky, and pottercast, it resulted in making some amazing friends. fuck rowling but i’ll never forget harry potter <3
harry potter is the trio and the fandom not the author
<3
Man. People need to learn how to ignore stuff they don’t like or use the block button.
right? there’s more outrage than is really worth it. just don’t participate in it if you don’t like it. instance blocking is a thing now on lemmy I’m fairly sure.
The crass may say “don’t hate the player, hate the game”, but a more accurate way to get the point across is that one can indeed separate the content from the creator and should not be judged for it.
Jewish people can watch Disney movies and not have to consider that Walt Disney was a huge anti-semite and a terrible human being.
People use Linux and don’t even care that Torvolds is no stranger to controversy himself.
It’s OK to like a story and not like the person who wrote it.
I’m sorry, but as a cis heterosexual man who has trans friends and has turned away from all things Harry Potter and JK Rowling in utter disgust, this strikes me as attempting to ignore the obvious transphobia of the TERF author in the hope of keeping your head in the sand and residing in a place of nostalgia solely because transgendered people aren’t the majority.
I get your desire to grow the Fediverse, but if you want to create a community around a fandom, perhaps you should choose a piece of media that embraces inclusion rather than one that is simply popular?
Stop looking into your past fandoms with nostalgic rose tinted glasses, acknowledge that you can’t have Hogwartz without the hatred, and find media that is straight up more inclusive.
Damn, you gotts love those shortcuts. You love HP ? You’re a transphobe biggot horrible person. Come on, grow up.
Nah. Didn’t call you or anyone else a transphobe. Did i? Make your case that you’re not simply wanting to enjoy HP while ignoring how hurtful JK’s rhetoric has been to the trans community. You’re turning a blind eye to the pain a minority community is enduring. That doesn’t make you a transphobe, that makes you indifferent to the harm that trans people have and will continue to endure because of JK’s transphobic bigotry.
The company you keep isn’t inherently transphobic, but it does show you don’t care about this particular issue, which puts you in the company of transphobes. Again, the company you keep reflects on your character. And I personally find that crowd distasteful, and I’m on the internet expressing it as such until the conversation ends.
I await another one of your witty retorts.
So the trans people that still like Harry Potter don’t mean anything?
Welp, they’re not trans anymore aparently
Holy fuck. I like Harry Potter and want to speak about it, so what? Because JK made a few announcements? Words do damage and I get that it’s already hard being trans and she isn’t helping. But acting like this is just building more walls, dividing an already fucked humankind for no good reason.
I respect anyone’s choice to be trans, but then you’ll have to let me discuss HP without judgement as well. And if you won’t, then you’re the problem. Because I will still respect anyone trans, but I won’t respect you.
for no good reason.
Seems like a pretty good to reason.
And choice to be trans? I dunno if it’s a choice anymore than I “choose” to love the same sex.
I don’t mean you can’t choose to stay clear of HP yourself. What I’m hinting at is that you can disassociate with a group without the drama. HP fans aren’t all bigots, that’s obvious right? I like Wagner’s music, I’m not a fucking Nazi. It’s such a weird hill to die on with everything going on.
And choice to be trans? I dunno if it’s a choice anymore than I “choose” to love the same sex.
It’s not the point, and I hope you got that but just couldn’t leave without slapping my wrist.
Yeah words matter. But thanks for clarifying it wasn’t your point.
Nobody’s gonna call you a Nazi for liking Wagner. But I will say you like Hitler’s favorite musician and if you start hanging out with other Wagner enthusiasts, you might very well find yourself in the company of Nazis. Sure they aren’t all Nazis, and I’m sure that if you were to find out some or most of them were , you’d rightly distance yourself from the group. Right?
My original argument isn’t about the quality of the works in question, it’s about whether it’s okay to ignore the hateful rhetoric of JKR and the harm she causes trans people with said rhetoric, solely in the interest of creating and engaging in community around her work.
It’s insensitive to a group already marginalized in societies at large because to form a community around HP inherently excludes them, not because trans people can’t see the value in HP or it’s literary quality, but because they can’t disassociate the work from the author. JKR is a TERF, has helped spearhead a TERF movement amongst her accolades, targeting trans people specifically with hate speech, all within recent memory.
Additionally, Wagner, while a controversial figure as Hitler’s favorite musician, was never explicitly anti-semitic. The same cannot be said of JK Rowling and her transphobic rhetoric. So the comparison isn’t quite as astute as you might believe it to be.
Sure, the human race is particularly divided right now, but trying to create a fan group around a brand founded by an outspoken outright TERF who has done real harm to a marginalized group deserves to be called out for what it is: a group willing to turn a blind eye to hate speech.
Saying we can somehow separate the good the work has done for some people, from the harm the author has done to the specific minority of trans people, is naive at best, and sympathizing with bigotry at worst.
Think about the community you’re trying to create. It is inherently anti-trans, by the very nature of it’s association with the author.
But hey, if that’s the kind of company you’d like to keep, then at least we all know who you like to associate with.
It’s not inherently anti-trans. How can you say that, can’t you see what OP wrote? And then you’re trying to put a stample on me for not being a good enough supporter of the cause, so bring out the guillotines! Sometimes I feel like the trans communities greatest enemy is it’s strongest proponents.
You can’t speak for every trans person, neither can I. But if you think no one trans likes HP, or think that if someone trans likes HP they aren’t really trans, then you can fuck right off. And if that’s not what you’re saying, then let it be?
People are weird, let them. If they aren’t actively trashing other people they aren’t doing harm. Stop being upset about things no one’s yet to do to you. You just come of as an leftist incel.
in my friend groups, quite a few people are binging hogwarts legacy at the moment.
most of them are trans. nobody is outraged. they just have jk blocked on twitter. they’re still potter fans.
there’s an obsessive hate in a lot of trans communities that nobody talks about. the “you like this book series so you’re a terf!” type mentality is really tiresome.
Its not lost on trans activists that trans people themselves can engage in the same type of careless behavior that results in the support of bigotry.
If they enjoy HP, that’s fine, but to deny that positive discourse around the franchise supports JKR and subtly and overtly, as well as reinforces her bigotry, is naive.
There are plenty of people who are willing to do the easy thing even if it ends up being harmful to themselves and others. Trans people are no exception to this kind of behavior.
It’s not like I haven’t encountered abrasive trans people, but oftentimes their anger and resentment comes from a place that is completely understandable. They often have to put so much of their grievances aside to assuage the masses because otherwise they are immediately villified, even amongst those that are supposed to be their supporters.
I personally don’t have much respect for those that are willing to turn a blind eye to the harm others obviously do just to go support them directly or indirectly for the sake of enjoying a piece of somewhat entertaining content.
The discomfort of seeing trans people getting angry about this shouldn’t inherently mean whoever brought up the grievance in a vehement manner ia immediately in the wrong. Sure, maybe they were a jerk about expressing it, but it doesn’t mean they were wrong. And dancing around it trying to be nice about the ”seeing both sides of the story" disxourse has proven ineffective at changing the discourse, so yeah, people are emptional and human and get frustrated when they dont feel heard, so they shout.
They know it won’t help, but what other option have you left them then? You’ve proven with your words, silence, actions, and inactions, that ultimately you don’t stand with them. You stand with HP, and as uncomfortable a truth as it is that you all refuse to acknowledge, you stand with JKR.
amazing. the very first line told me everything I need to know about what kind of person you really are.
“those trans people don’t act the same way as me, so they’re obviously wrong.”
grow up, man. not everyone is going to agree with your weird victim-obsessed ideals.
Not a quote. You’re intentionally misinterpreting what I posted. I’ll just keave this here for you to read again because you obviously would rather engage in throwing hot garbage around than produce a valid counterpoint.
My original post again was:
Its not lost on trans activists that trans people themselves can engage in the same type of careless behavior that results in the support of bigotry.
If they enjoy HP, that’s fine, but to deny that positive discourse around the franchise supports JKR and subtly and overtly, as well as reinforces her bigotry, is naive.
There are plenty of people who are willing to do the easy thing even if it ends up being harmful to themselves and others. Trans people are no exception to this kind of behavior.
It’s not like I haven’t encountered abrasive trans people, but oftentimes their anger and resentment comes from a place that is completely understandable. They often have to put so much of their grievances aside to assuage the masses because otherwise they are immediately villified, even amongst those that are supposed to be their supporters.
I personally don’t have much respect for those that are willing to turn a blind eye to the harm others obviously do just to go support them directly or indirectly for the sake of enjoying a piece of somewhat entertaining content.
The discomfort of seeing trans people getting angry about this shouldn’t inherently mean whoever brought up the grievance in a vehement manner ia immediately in the wrong. Sure, maybe they were a jerk about expressing it, but it doesn’t mean they were wrong. And dancing around it trying to be nice about the ”seeing both sides of the story" disxourse has proven ineffective at changing the discourse, so yeah, people are emptional and human and get frustrated when they dont feel heard, so they shout.
They know it won’t help, but what other option have you left them then? You’ve proven with your words, silence, actions, and inactions, that ultimately you don’t stand with them. You stand with HP, and as uncomfortable a truth as it is that you all refuse to acknowledge, you stand with JKR.
I’m somehow failing to find your misquote within my original post. Could you please point out which line has this hot garbage?:
“those trans people don’t act the same way as me, so they’re obviously wrong.”
Cuz nowhere did I even indicate this. I don’t want them to think the same as me. I’m expressing my opinion that you obviously disagree with. But to misquote me is petty and pointless. Either present a valid counterpoint or take your ball and go home.
Sorry, but no. You can sit by the sidelines and cause harm. It’s been done many times over throughout history, and sadly I’m sure we’ll see it again. I’m literally witnessing a bunch of people ignore the plight of a marginalized group right here, right now.
I’m calling it out because it’s exactly that. It’s literally the least amount of effort I can put in while still doing what I think is right, not fucking nothing, and certainly not engaging in a community that is transphobe adjacent.
Again, company you keep reflects on you, ignoring a problem can be just as harmful as actively causing harm under certain circumstances.
Are these those specific circumstances? Maybe not. But I’ll be damned if I don’t call out indifference to suffering when I see it, which is exactly what this is.
I’m not speaking for all trans people. I’m speaking for me. It’s the internet, try and stop me. If any person, trans or otherwise, wants to engage with me and argue why I’m wrong and presents a solid argument, I’d be more than happy to hear it.
But so far, all I’m hearing is a bunch of pearl clutching rhetoric dancing around the fact that to support HP in any way shape or form can only help JKR, and by proxy, her transphobic agenda. If that’s what you all want to do, then go ahead. But don’t pretend that’s not what’s happening.
I get it, you think you’re doing good, I’d ask you to reconsider that. You’re claiming someone is doing something no one has even considered yet. Judge the result, not your idea of what they’re trying to do. You’re painting a monster no one else sees.
I won’t answer your second post to me since it wasn’t targeted at you, and I’m lazy.
Judge the result, not your idea of what they’re trying to do.
Yeah. That wait and see approach hasn’t usually worked out for minorities…
You’re painting a monster no one else sees.
No. I’m pointing out that due to nostalgia and a desire for community, HP fans willing to turn a blind eye to the hateful rhetoric of JKR are engaging with transphobic communities, even if the community rules attempts to discourage outright hate speech. If you can’t see how that’s harmful, you’re blind.
I won’t answer your second post to me since it wasn’t targeted at you, and I’m lazy.
Fair enough, though I’m happy to engage in discourse on that point as well.
“choice to be trans”
Well there you go, transphobia pretending to disguise itself. Go ahead and try to justify your wording, you’ve already lost plenty of people’s respect. Of course if that “doesn’t matter” to you, you probably shouldn’t have brought it up.
If you limit yourself to media created only by authors that past your particular purity test your going to have a very narrow view of the world. There is a reason the HP fandom is popular and I don’t think it’s because it’s because it’s made up of budding transphobes.
I’ve read Rowlings original HP books. They were decent. My current stance is as simple as no longer supporting her work nor supporting groups that continue to. I’m calling out you and anyone else that thinks they can some how support trans rights and still enjoy the HP universe. You’re trying to absolve yourself of somehow not being in the company of transphobic Harry Potter fans, when you clearly are. That doesn’t make you inherently transphobic, but it does indicate that you love HP more than you dislike JK’s transphobic rhetoric. Sure you can verbally condemn JK’s transphobic rhetoric, but if you continue to engage with her content after having knowledge of her bigotry, it indicates you’re willing to turn a blind eye to hate speech in the interest of nostalgia. Probably also out of loneliness and a desperation for community.
Where do the trans people that still like Harry Potter fit in in your world?
I don’t think it’s particularly hard to find authors who aren’t actively spreading hate, actually. And I don’t think Rowling’s level of transphobia is a particularly specific purity test.
Plus, Rowling takes an active role in promoting hate. She’s loud about it. She has a big platform because HP is so popular, and I think that makes her especially dangerous.
She certainly seems to put her money where her mouth is too.
Perfectly said
So where’s do trans people that still like Harry Potter fit into your equation?
Should we just ignore what they think?
Trans people are allowed to make their own choices about how they deal with Rowlings transphobia.
Honestly, it’s not even about JK Rowling, the actual Harry Potter series has very poor values in general, and the world is quite poorly written. Not something I’d want to promote to other people or children regardless of Rowling’s nonsense. The books turned me off very much as a kid though the movies are much more palatable. It’s just a really mean series.
Sounds cool. I’m not a Harry Potter fan and certainly no fan of Rowling, but I’m really surprised that this is controversal.
How do you explain the Fediverse? You can find an instance you like. Harry Potter people can have theirs.
Look at what the collaboration of Lego and Disney brought to Fortnite.
I’m not sure if this is the example you want to follow
I’m neither an HP fan nor queer so take what I’m going to say with a grain of salt.
I think that the idea is mostly good, but don’t underestimate the amount of work necessary to keep your instance safe. Make sure to have admins online 24/7, that they’re all on the same page regarding rule enforcement, consult often the queer community on stuff that matters, and make sure that it’s part of your admin team.
The main thing that I believe that you need to watch out for is users lacking discernment. They’ll come in two “flavours”: the ones trying to sell JK Rowling’s transphobia, and the ones trying to sell hate against the fanbase.
Also, I’m not sure but I think that “no tolerance towards transphobia” sounds easier to enforce than “queer-friendly”. The goal is the same, the difference is less subjectivity. (In general it’s better to approach rules and their enforcement as objectively as possible.)
Thanks for the tips, they are very helpful.
I think I will exclude “queer friendly” again. It raises some false promises that I think I cannot hold. I like the term “no tolerance towards transphobia”.
I would recommend only opening with regsitration application only. And only federate with instances you trust and want to get federated and have some contact with the admins that you federate with. ( On matrix or anywhere else ) We have a common, matrix channel where many admins are active ( https://matrix.to/#/#defense:lemmy.world ) there you get early warnings about bad stuff that could be federated to you.
Good advice
Hey, Good Luck with your endeavors. Beware of mob brigading and “canceling” you. There is already !harrypotter@literature.cafe Make sure you have at least one or two moderators with additional technical sysadmin that will keep the instance up.
I think the biggest challenge at the start will be keeping community alive. I know from experience that if you are the only person posting it is disheartening, and it leads to very fast burnout.
I think the biggest challenge at the start will be keeping community alive. I know from experience that if you are the only person posting it is disheartening, and it leads to very fast burnout.
Yeah, I think so, too. I fear that Harry Potter memes could play a crutial part here, but I’m not yet confortable enough to enable images. Let’s see how it goes …
You can use an external image host in the meantime (like imgur or catbox.moe, unfortunately I don’t know of any “open” solutions)
Already figured that one out myself but thanks anyways. Yeah, would be nice to have an open alternative there
Yup. The kids are gong to tear that place up.
I know from experience that if you are the only person posting it is disheartening, and it leads to very fast burnout.
Very true
The responses in this thread highlight my point. If you don’t have explicit rules to stop that shit in its tracks (which you don’t), you aren’t queer friendly, because queer folk can’t exist there without being told that transphobia is fine actually, as long as you like the person doing it.
The responses in this thread highlight my point.
What responses? The ones who say they can separate the content from the creator?
If you don’t have explicit rules to stop that shit in its tracks (which you don’t)
Here are the rules. The first rule is about not attacking groups of people. So yeah.
Don’t bother, the person you’re replying to has a storied history of notoriously bad takes, such as “porn of petite women is the same thing as CSAM” (paraphrased), and deleting comments that call out their awful takes in communities/instances they run. They aren’t a sensible person.
Bro it’s fucking Ada. You can safely ignore them, they get bitchy about everything.
Did this even went through?
Yes your post came through!
Wishing you best of luck with your server. You will need strict moderation to keep transphobia out.
Is this actually true? Rowling herself aside, I don’t think I’ve ever seen an openly transphobic Harry Potter fan - granted I also don’t spend a huge amount of time in Harry Potter forums and stuff.
There’s a loud minority who think Joanne is basically their god-empress and think she can do no wrong. There’s also a bit of people who became fans purely because their shitty views align with her shitty views.
This people are probably still on Twitter and Reddit and far from here
people who became fans purely because their shitty views align with her shitty views
Didn’t know that’s a thing, but I guess people find others to follow using different means and that could be one 😞
I think most fans are fine, all I’m saying is that it takes one or two malicious jerks and the space quickly becomes queer-unfriendly, which is why I suggest strict moderation, no tolerance for bigotry.
Yes. It went through
Ok thanks :)
