After reading “Into Thin Air” by Jon Krakauer, I feel like anyone still traveling to climb Everest is a rich douchebag. It’s glorified tourism of the worst kind. It’s been done a zillion times already, and isn’t as impressive as they fantasize. Go run a marathon or something for your stupid adventure junky social media clout. The sherpas do all the real work.
That’s an incredible book. I highly recommend both that and Under the Banner of Heaven. Krakauer is just riveting.
Totally agree, I think Into Thin Air is maybe my favorite book and I wasn’t expecting that at all when I read it. I really enjoyed the show based on Under the Banner of Heaven too. What a bunch of crazies.
Krakauer is definitely a great writer but the factual issues in into the wild kind of made me wonder just how accurate the rest of his books are.
I don’t know about Into the Wild, but I have read plenty about the FLDS church since to know that he at least got those details right in Under the Banner of Heaven.
I’ve read all of these. The streamingseries adaptation for under the banner of heaven was pretty good too.
Now I have heard that the steaming adaptation had some accuracy issues. I haven’t seen it yet.
The show does differ from the book. The main character in the show (Andrew Garfield) is not in the book. He’s a detective searching for answers. It helps tell the narrative in video form. The book doesn’t need that. Both the book and show are good. They just tell the relevant story in slightly different ways.
I don’t recall the s Specifics enough to comment on the accuracy, because I read the book at least 15 years before seeming the show. but it is enjoyable and it I think anyone who doesn’t read books should check it out to see how crazy Mormons really are.
He admitted to some errors. He’s trustworthy overall. That story has always been surrounded by a cloud of emotions and conflicting “takes”. Which is very understandable. But I would also question the sister’s version. Not saying she is lying, but a family member will always be biased.
I think there have been a lot of questions raised by people even before the recent book came out. In particular, the cause of Chris’s death by poisoning was more or less invented by Krakauer and contradicts what the coroner wrote and several independent analyses done on this topic. But Krakauer stood by this and has tried to revive his pet theories even after they were debunked.
Wasn’t only Krakauer, though. McCandless himself wrote it in his journal, and many others have speculated he was poisoned by this or that. Krakauer didn’t make it up out of whole cloth.
Truth is we don’t know and probably never will. But it’s kind of irrelevant. People always want to know an exact cause of death. Which is understandable, but ultimately the kid got killed by something he did or failed to do. Even if it was simple rabbit starvation (malnourishment) he failed to survive in the wild on his own.
I admire Chris and what he did. I don’t think his death means he was an idiot. Quite the opposite. I think he was brave and adventurous and lived a much better life, if cut tragically short, than 99% of humans. But there’s still some lessons to be learned from his avoidable passing.
The available evidence strongly suggests he starved (from lack of food, not protein poisoning) and has strongly undermined the poisoning theory. You can read a pretty detailed outline of his claims and contrary evidence here: https://freshlyworded.com/2020/05/17/re-reading-into-the-wild-what-killed-chris-mccandless/
But exactly how Chris died is kind of beside the point: Krakauer has suggested about half a dozen similar theories over the years, only to have them sequentially debunked. He then comes up with a new one as soon as the previous one is no longer tenable. This approach is not only wrong but it is in opposition to the idea of truth-seeking in that it goes to great lengths to avoid the obvious conclusion of the available evidence. If he had just said what you wrote, that the truth is somewhat uncertain that would be fine. But he didn’t, he has pursued his pet theory beyond all reason or evidence. I am assuming this is an ego issue and it raises big questions about the facts in his other reporting which have not been investigated as deeply.
Here’s another article that goes over even more factual issues in this section: https://www.adn.com/books/article/fiction-jon-krakauers-wild/2015/01/10/
I don’t want to dunk on Chris but he died because he was inexperienced and unprepared for the situation he put himself in. Whether that makes him an idiot is for up for debate but it’s not true that he was a victim of some unforeseeable tragedy. He didn’t have enough food or the means to obtain it, which is something most people realize before traveling to a remote area where they cannot easily escape.
I’ve read Krakauer’s responses and followups and have a very different take. I see guy being attacked from two contradictory sides, simply trying his best to defend his reputation as an author. Not saying he handled it perfectly, but I disagree that it’s pure ego and wild theories driving him. He’s very open that he’s speculating, he’s owned up to being wrong at times, and he’s trying to show the know-it-alls that they do not have the definitive answer either.
deleted by creator
At this point it’d be safer to just build a tram line to the top and then hire the sherpas as the infrastructure mechanics to keep it maintained, raises their incomes and cuts the shit with people dying for dumb rich people nonsense.
The Chinese already built a paved road to the North Base Camp. Only a matter of time before they build it all the way to the top.
Maybe but IIRC the Chinese side of the approach was already considered the less treacherous side, this would most likely require some serious capital investment just for hazard mitigation alone during construction.
The long term net benefit though would be more than enough to warrant the costs IMO, would even facilitate recovering the dead bodies on the slope.
I think the long term net loss of allowing anyone who wants to drive to the top to do so is a bigger issue.
The net loss of people not dying like idiots for a fake accomplishment? The net loss of the local communities getting high paying technical jobs? The net loss of all that shit and dead people the hike accumulates being removed from the equation since it’s now able to be safely transported off the mountain without making people hike for days to retrieve it?
And a road to the top allowing endless tourists up there won’t result in more trash accumulating on the mountain? Not to mention erosion.
Have you been to an easily-accessible natural wonder before? People who can get up close treat them like shit. That’s why most of them are only viewable from a distance.
I give it two weeks from the time a road to the top gets completed before someone spray paints their graffiti tag on the summit.
-
who said anything about a road, I mentioned a rail car.
-
that’s what you install guard rails and write rules of conduct for. This tragedy of the commons narrative more often than not comes from understaffed park workers not having the funding to adequately police park visitor behavior with the up close sites, the tomb of the unknown soldier is also easily accessible and yet is one of the most well maintained and respectfully observed sites in the world.
-
I’m pretty sure the spray paint can would have blown off their hand by the time they got to the summit from becoming so much more pressurized by the high altitude.
-
But the rich need to maintain their veil of accomplishment! And it’s dumb rich people dying, so who cares?
For real, go climb Muchu Chhish if a flex is wanted. Highest unclimbed peak in the world that can be legally climbed right now.
Ok, help me understand this.
Muchu Chhish (7,453 metres (24,452 ft)) is a mountain in the Batura Muztagh sub-range of the Karakoram in Hunza Valley, in northern areas of Pakistan.[1] Located in a very remote and inaccessible region, only a handful of attempts have been made to reach the summit; and none have succeeded.
Ok, that seems to track but then there’s this bit…
most expeditions thus attempt it via the South Ridge of 7,462 m (24,482 ft) Batura VI to the immediate west. This ridge was climbed by a Polish expedition in 1983 using fixed ropes while making the first ascent of 7,531 m (24,708 ft)
Rest of the sentence (emphasis mine)
This ridge was climbed by a Polish expedition in 1983 using fixed ropes while making the first ascent of 7,531 m (24,708 ft) Batura V and VI
They ascended the Batura VI peak next door, which I guess happens to be almost as tall as Muchu Chhish (Batura V). Interesting that the wiki article claims they ascended Batura V and VI, but their linked references by the American Alpine club says it was Batura IV. Probably a scrivener’s error, since 7,531 is the height of Batura VI.
deleted by creator
You’re allowed to try but no one has succeeded?
IMO he was stressing how easy it has become to make the climb. In that it was expensive is another issue. His point was that people that didn’t have the ability to make the climb, could.
That was definitely one of his major points. But he also talked about all the damage being done, and how people make really stupid decisions. And how it’s an arrogant and pointless endeavor. He was fairly self-critical, which I respect.
He was speaking as a witness to a tragedy and as such was trying to identify why it happened. He himself was blamed for part of it by climber families. Of course any event that ends in tragedy seems pointless in retrospect.
Say they succeeded and nobody got hurt. I still don’t see the point. I’m not saying all of mountain climbing is entirely pointless. I’m saying most people going to Everest for the clout are dumb.
They’re clearly not thinking this through. They all need to lug their frozen poo to the summit and pile it there, so they can stand on it when they take their selfie and declare that they’re at a higher peak than any previous summiters due to their poo pedestal.
Love it
One thing that is not on my bucket list is climbing Mt. Everest. Any natural wonder and charm it once had have been destroyed by mindless tourists.
So that is something that is on my bucket list, not climbing Everest.
Congrats on the bucket list so far! Oh how less poop and endangered your life is now!
Thought it was “starts to sink,” I was like ok that’s a lot of poop
BRB gotta eat enough tacobell to reverse tectonic processes and launch the monsoons into central asia
I thought it was shrink.
How much frozen human shit has that mountain accumulated since people started climbing it for fun? Can somebody do the math on that? I feel like it has potential for a really shitty trivia question. Like, for Shitty Jeopardy! or something. JFC, I am baked.
@FlyingSquid omg I didn’t realize it was your post. Hi! Ok I’m gonna put the bowl down
A shitload har har harApparently the average UK adult defecates about 100g per day, and that’s the first link that showed up so I’m going to go with the UK numbers in that one study. According to wikipedia there were 11,346 ascents as of July 2022. Assuming two weeks from base camp to summit and back, based on Tom Kilpatrick’s article on The Manual, that means 1.4 kg of shit per climb for a total of almost 16 metric tonnes or 17.5 short tons
I read that as 17.5 shit tons
Thank you for your service.
That number is definitely low, you eat more in the cold and with exertion. It is probably over double your number, that is a lot of doo-doo.
I imagine all the loss of snow is exposing decades of accumulated mountain dookie.
By 2100 they are estimating a 75% loss of snow/ice on the mountain, which means at 800 climbs per year(modern rate) by 2100 there will be over 186 metric tonnes of poopy on the mountain with very little snow to hide it. I don’t even think that number includes Sherpa scat.
Some maths are better left unmathed
Hello!
Astounding how fucking senseless people can be.
Yeah but imagine all the clout and bragging you can do with a photo of you at the top?
Yeah, but your life is all downhill from there.
They need to just haul a big trebuchet up there.Then they can just launch poop down the mountain in sealed containers with the poop trebuchet. Ideally you could have a few poop trebuchets in a line to launch em down one after another.
Easy peasy.
You’re over engineering this.
Have you ever heard about the guys who brought parachutes up Everest, and just glided back down?
Instead of a heavy trebuchet, you just redesign poop bags to have a little parachute attached to them. Then you release your poop to the winds… Who knows how far your poop might go?
So we are just bringing part of Death Stranding to real life?
Where I have to signup?
Global warming is gonna make that a simple hike.
Support global warming! Let the earth clean up Everest poop the natural way! Decomposition in situ: transport costs more emissions!
The thing that makes Everest dangerous is the air pressure combined with everything else, that’s why it’s such a long slow ascent, you have to acclimatize so your lungs don’t implode.
In the summer the summit temperature is about the same as a bad Canadian prairie winter day
It already is a simple hike, it just depends on weather if it’s dangerous or not.
80 year olds have climbed everest. So have 15 year olds.
That 80 year old is a mountaineer. The youngest, at 13, went with three sherpas to help.
It isn’t a simple hike, but since you seem to think it is- let’s see the pics from when you made the trip.
Ah yes, I just talked about how stupid it is to climb everest, so I definitely did that.
No, you just ignorantly judged something you’ve never done as easy.
You are bitter, angry and judging by your comment history, just try to bait people into arguments.
Pass.
Thanks for playing.
Simple hike? Haha have you ever climbed any mountain?
Have you?
limit the permits to climb this mountain and charge people thousands of dollars for them
I too, believe the best way to control a natural resource is to only allow the rich to use it. For they are truly better people. Always known for their consideration.
Only the rich climb it now.
An upper middle class person can afford an Everest climb as a once in a lifetime trip. It isn’t an exclusive millionaire class trip.
“Once in a lifetime” isn’t affordable, that’s someone sacrificing a lot to vacation outside of their socioeconomic class.
An “economy” climb is $60k. That is 10 years of saving $6k per year for a once in a lifetime vacation. That is totally achievable for someone making $100k a year that doesn’t let income creep put them in a stupid financial situation.
You have more of a point if that same person making $100k a year spends $120k on a “premium” climb, but that same person would let income creep make that trip less reasonably affordable.
Shut up 🙄
How poor are the people here that you’re getting downvoted and even got a “shut up” for this comment? It’s really not a stretch to call a $60k expense a “once in a lifetime” expense.
How many people drive around in 80k vehicles that they “upgrade” every few years? How many people spend absolutely ridiculous amounts of money on designer brands, perfumes, watches, and shit? Sure, 60k is a lot of money for most people, but there’s a large number of people (at least in the western countries, in absolute numbers, not %) that could easily afford to spend 60k on something every 5-10 years if it fancies them, and an even larger number of people who could afford to spend 60k on something once in a lifetime.
Those people with $80k cars tend to lease, which can have tax advantages, but you are still paying $1k a month to rent a car that you put 20-30% down on.
That touches on that income creep issue as people increase their lifestyle expenses along with income and don’t understand how they are living paycheck to paycheck with no savings, retirement, investments, and can’t afford to have your midlife crisis on the world’s tallest peak.
Buy a Honda, climb the mountain.
But what about the poors?
They belong down here.
Plus, their shit doesn’t stink.
Yeah seriously, just limit the amount of people who can climb.
I personally believe that anyone should be allowed to go on a suicide mission should they chose to, whether they be rich or poor.
How? Unless you live in Napal, it’s not cheap to get to. It also takes at least some amount of planning and skill. Far from the hardest climb out there, but you can’t be an idiot about it.
The remoteness alone is already limiting who can go there. El Capitan is less remote, but is a legendarily difficult climb, and that may get around the same number of people per year.
That’s already the case isn’t it?
At least the idiots all funnel to the same place rather than fucking up every location. I feel the same about Joffre Lakes near Vancouver.
You really can’t have a better headline for the wealthy enshittifying the world for their singularity point egos chef kiss
Sherpa rates gonna skyrocket
The first thing I want to know is who shits on the mountain? I mean taking a poo in base camp I can understand-- but on the way?
It takes 2-3 weeks to get from base camp to camp 4. So thats at least 3-4 days between camps.
I know lemmy has a thing about not pooping for 3 days, but to maintain a 3-day bowel movement cycle for 2 weeks is a bit far fetched.The final ascent from camp 4 to summit is 10-20 hours, plus descent. Normally done in a single stretch, but likely still gonna need a shit.
So, Im going to say everyone that goes up it is gonna shit on the mountain
https://www.themanual.com/outdoors/how-long-does-it-take-to-climb-mount-everest/
lemmy has a thing about not pooping for 3 days
What are you… you know what, never mind. I don’t want to know.
The original post appears to have disappeared, but heres a post that was crosposted to !fediverselore@lemmy.ca
https://lemmy.world/post/455290
(Not sure how to translate post permalinks to the instance agnostic form, and the cross post shows more detail of the original post on the web interface)
When they have rest periods during days long climbs a tent camp moves with them. Pretty sure they also have a toilet.
Well, first paragraph of the article:
Mounting piles of human poop are kicking up a stink on Mountain Everest, much to the annoyance of local authorities who are now instructing climbers they must bring their dirty business back to base camp.
So, even if they have a toilet, it isnt magically transporting the shit off the mountain.
Or, there are climbers without these magical toilets.
Or, there are enough climbers not removing their waste from everest for it to be causing a problem.People clearly shit on everest.
Clearly, not everyone is removing their 2 weeks worth of wasteWaste is a problem on Everest and they have been working on it for years. If frozen .poop is a problem, they should clean it up for sure.
Years? Give me 8 good men, three months, and a little discretionary spending and I’ll have all the shit off that mountain. We’ll carry up the components to build a small trebuchet and launch platform, pieces at a time over several ascents, and once it’s built proceed to sling all the shit 350m off the side of the mountain. It’ll be easier to clean up once it’s collected at the base and people aren’t risking death just to get to the area it’s in.
For a real professional amount of money, we can airdrop the trebuchet materials with a heli and only make one trip up for construction and operation.
Ohhh you could do the same thing with the corpses too! Looks like someone is getting a funeral after all!
people aren’t risking death just to get to the area it’s in.
How will they get it from ‘the area it’s in’ to the trebuchet? Is there a drone idea for the last-metre work?
Nah that’s what our 8 men are for. Someone got there to take a shit originally, someone ought to be able to get there to retrieve it.
Holy shit I had no idea it took 2-3 months to do this
It takes about a week to go from base camp to summit to base camp. Even the fastest ever time on this route is over eighteen hours
How do they wipe and clean themselves up there? I’d bring my bidet with, lol
Poorly I would guess
Makes you wonder if they just start diet until returning to camp.
Wait is this the no-poop-for-three-days guy is doing all along?
