I’m voting for Biden to stave off Jerry Lewis Hitler, as I did last cycle and Clinton before.
That said, a lot of Biden enthusiasts need to stop with the “you also need to say you like him and his politics” crap.
No one should feel enthused about always getting wildly varying degrees of bad as the only choice, merely afraid. At this point we’re voting whether to keep the water pumps on as Titanic sinks to buy a little time instead of declaring the water at our waist “fake.”
Vote to keep the pumps on, sure, but it helps nothing to pretend our rigged capitalist hellscape, that neoliberals and fascists alike declare as “the only way,” isn’t eating the itself and us and defended by both parties far above the people (we will take every measure to protect our beloved society economy! Here Fed, I’m sure you’ll ensure these relief funds trickle down after private shareholders get plenty of relief, of course), while it continues wrecking the planet for a few more short term cash grabs before the owners fly off to their prepared havens, con complete. Nox.
A vote for Biden is a vote for us to not add state sponsored scapegoating, persecution, and ending bodily autonomy to our doom in motion like a cherry. Yes let’s do that(edit: meaning vote for Biden if unclear)…
No one is saying you have to be enthused. They’re saying you have to pretend to be enthused. Because the strategy of “I’m going to tell everyone I hate this guy so I don’t loose any cool points with my friends who the maturity of 16 year olds” is a losing one for you and minorities and LGBT people and women and basically everyone you’re fucking over.
I do think theyre making perfect be the enemy of, well not exactly good, but in this case the better option, but Im not so sure theyre foreign ops. If you were running a campaign like that, wouldnt you want to concentrate your messaging on the places where the greatest number of people would be to see it, or at least a lot of people? Lemmy is certainly not immune to influence campaigns, Id bet it might even be more vulnerable than most given the lack of central control that might try to inhibit one, but its also currently incredibly small and obscure as far as social networks go. Would it really be considered worth the resources, to such a campaign, in its current state?
There was a point in 2016 when the bernouts started spouting on about how they were now voting for Trump. It’s the exact same situation. They will disingenuously demand something that is not feasible then they will show their true colors while acting like they didn’t intend on voting Trump from the get go.
Imagine voting for neolibs and having the gall to call progressives privileged. Progressives are younger and lower income but sure we’re the privileged ones. You don’t give a shit about anything except character assassinating anyone you see as an enemy. There’s never any honest attempt at engagement from you people.
Oh no, how dare I publicly criticize a political candidate in a democracy. It’s fucking crazy that you think you’re actually one of the good guys. This is exactly the kind of shit fascists say to shut down opposition.
What we’re telling y’all is that voting one more time for a neoliberal isn’t going to make a meaningful change in stopping the inevitable descent into fascism that neoliberal policies have facilitated for the last 40 or 50 years.
It’s like the saying goes: the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
You’re saying in one breath that Trump and Biden are the same and in the next that voting for either one of them equally insane. Both of those things are plainly false.
Won’t make a difference means zero difference but Trump is literally the accelerationist choice.
Surely what the Democrats are doing is effective, and Christo fascism is now less of a threat than it was in 2016 and 2020. Right? They should clearly keep doing the same thing, it’s working super well!
The thing is: the US is not a well-functioning democracy. It currently tries to be to some extent, but it’s system especially at the national level is set up in a way that heavily biases power towards wealthy interests and rural states, both of which tend to favor conservative politics, and which mathematically garuntees only two parties can be viable at a time, with third parties merely providing a negative effect on whatever major party is closer to them. In a well designed democratic system, there’d be a much greater variety of political groups to support such that one that actually reasonably approximates a given person’s views may exist, and voting for those groups would have practical consequence. But, we don’t have that. Voting isn’t completely inconsequential, hence one should still do it, but in our current state it’s not enough to fix things by itself. But again, since it still does something even if not enough, it makes sense to try to get as much utility as possible out of it. At the moment, the only candidates that have any chance whatsoever of winning are a neoliberal and a fascist. Now, you can argue that the popularity of the fascist is a result of the failures of neoliberal policies and so voting for the candidate supporting those policies won’t stop the popularity of the fascist ones, and that could be true- but the fascist is just going to bring about the fascist policies even faster. “The candidate that can fix things” isn’t on the ballot of either major party right now, and the system mathematically garuntees that third parties are counterproductive at this level, so voting for meaningful change isn’t an option here.
I’m not saying one should give up pushing for meaningful change. I’m saying that at the moment, getting that change is going to require more than just voting, at least at the national level and especially in the presidential election. I do not plan on voting for Biden in the coming general election because I am under some illusion that he’s going to fix things. I plan on voting for him to stall for time. It isn’t exiting, it’s downright depressing, but on balance, it’s still more moral in my view to take that option than the fascistic one, or to do nothing at all.
Exactly… It’s almost like there’s no interest to change any of that from those who benefit and continuing to vote for them or support them will continue to perpetuate this inevitable spiral.
Sometimes the only winning move is not to play. - Joshua (John Wood), War Games, 1983
Hi, it’s me, a Palestinian American, how about don’t use my people’s plight to justify letting the guy who wants to deport my ass for liking Knaffeh get into office?
I have enough issues without truck nuts McGee feeling re-emboldened to call me Sand Nigger and Towelhead.
Or how about his plan to sacrifice the West Bank for a “Gaza Plus” without full statehood, where somehow Egypt gives up the Sainai Peninsula, all Palestinians, including Palestinians in the West Bank and Egypt, are forced to live there, and all right of return claims are nullified in perpetuity?
And then there’s Project 2025, where Trump and Republicans plan to make the U.S. a Christian theocracy. How do they think Muslim Americans will be treated?
But none of that matters because they can call Biden “Genocide Joe” and say not to vote for him because of it.
That sounds absolutely bonkers and I don’t want any of that to come to pass. But I can’t sleep with myself at night knowing that I’m voting for someone who is going out of his way to send weapons to facilitate an active genocide.
Instead of framing this as my failing for bringing about Trump because I won’t vote for continued genocide, try to see it in terms of your (the rhetorical “your”) failing by insisting that my choice be fixed between enabling an atrocious genocide or bringing about the end of our civilization. The solution is the obvious third choice, run somebody else beside Biden. He is too unpalatable to reliably beat Trump, so don’t run him.
Insisting that we hold our nose and vote for an unelectable candidate failed with Clinton (how we got Trump the first time) and she was just unpopular. Going ahead with the same demonstrably failed strategy with someone who is a direct party to a genocide is even more foolish.
I’m not going to vote for Biden unless he reins in Israel and stops facilitating war crimes there and it’s still going to be hard knowing what he has done. I would vote for any other Democrat that runs in his place. Insulting me because I won’t vote for a candidate who is a party to war crimes won’t work. If you need my vote, you can’t ask me to do what I’m telling you I won’t do. There’s nine months to figure out how to get the DNC to run another candidate in place of Biden. If you don’t want to risk Trump again, you should consider that option.
The solution is the obvious third choice, run somebody else beside Biden. He is too unpalatable to reliably beat Trump, so don’t run him.
Fine. Which one of those obvious third choices did you canvas for in your state?
I’m not going to vote for Biden unless he reins in Israel and stops facilitating war crimes there and it’s still going to be hard knowing what he has done.
Bold of you to do that in the face of a Palestinian person telling you that you’re in the wrong for that position. I guess you know what’s best for them.
Also interesting that you didn’t say that to them, but said it to me.
So you’re insisting that your role in this is really nothing more than to tell me I’m wrong for not voting for Biden and that I’m to blame for whatever comes? I’m not the only person who feels this way and I’m informing you that this strategy of yours is unduly dangerous. Digging in and trying to shame a couple of people on the internet isn’t mitigating the risk here.
That some self-proclaimed internet Palestinian says that they’re ok with somebody sending a fascist state the weapons that are being used to murder innocent people doesn’t change my view on things. If I tell you that I’m Palestinian too, will that change your mind?
Dude, I’m browsing this on a phone and I’m pretty sure I responded to their post also. What are even you on about? Do you think this is some amazing rhetoric on your part?
I’m not going to vote for somebody who supports fascists and war crimes, even if you and other people do. Even if all Palestinians support him, which the Michigan uncommitted episode makes seem unlikely.
If you want my vote, you need to convince Biden to stop this situation in Gaza or convince him to step down from the primaries. I’m doing what I can on both fronts, but it will take a critical mass to force his hand.
No amount of insults or attempts at shaming me will make me support genocide, man. It’s just not going to happen. If you need to win at internet to get on with your day, then you can consider this a win. You win this argument, whatever that means.
You can now go ahead and bury your head in the sand and pretend that my viewpoint is stupid, isolated, and shouldn’t even be considered (like you probably did with Clinton in 2016). You can even blame me for ending up with Trump again if that makes you better about your clearly failed strategy at bringing people to your viewpoint.
I’m not the guy who wants Trump in office. I’m just the one who doesn’t want to vote for somebody who is repeatedly bypassing Congress to send weapons to literal fascists committing war crimes. That’s someone I can’t just hold my nose and vote for. His political career is over.
Why can’t we have any of the other people who ran in the 2020 Democratic primaries instead of Biden? This idea that it absolutely has to be Biden or else the DNC will let the country fall apart with Trump is so completely messed up.
Dean Phillips, but he has little chance against an incumbent who has the support of the Party leadership. In order for anyone to solidly beat him in the primaries, Biden would need to step down or the Party would need to acknowledge that the Clinton strategy of pushing their pick even if unpopular isn’t a safe one.
Voters tend to not show up for primaries against incumbents, but unenthusiastic or marginalized voters also tend to not show up to elections. Or put another way, an incumbent winning a primary isn’t indicative of a candidate winning an election. And I have no faith that Biden can win an election. That the DNC does is frightening and delusional.
Or are you saying that you wouldn’t vote for any Democratic candidate except Biden? What on earth does the party have to lose by having Biden step down?
What exactly did you do to help Dean Phillips’ campaign?
Or are you saying that you wouldn’t vote for any Democratic candidate except Biden? What on earth does the party have to lose by having Biden step down?
I’ll vote for whoever will stop Trump to prevent the ongoing queer genocide you apparently don’t care much about from getting worse and taking my daughter with it.
Who do you suggest I vote for if Biden appears to be the one most likely to save my daughter’s life?
lol, it’s nothing but moving goalposts with you, is it?
Your daughter’s life doesn’t mean enough to you to help me get an electable candidate through the primaries. When she asks you what you did to save her, you can say you argued with people on the internet. Sleep with that on your conscience.
I apologize for being too seriously ill to do anything about the primaries. And also for not being a member of the Democratic Party. What did you do for Dean Phillips? I already asked you and you won’t say. Should I guess that you did essentially nothing?
I am not moving the goalposts at all. First of all, this is the very first comment I made in this thread:
I keep telling people- the queer genocide that has already begun with Republican restrictions on trans rights and medical care is going to ramp way up and encompass queer people as a whole. Including my daughter.
And yet I keep being told I’m excusing genocide by voting for Biden in order to stop Trump from killing her.
Secondly, you blatantly asked me if I’d vote for any Democrat other than Biden:
Or are you saying that you wouldn’t vote for any Democratic candidate except Biden?
The answer is yes, if they can beat Trump. I have no idea why you think answering your question is moving the goalposts. That seems like just as silly a lie as when you accused me of supporting genocide- the very thing I said people keep telling me I’m doing by voting for Biden to save my daughter’s life in my very first post. Surprise, surprise.
Jesus Christ. The US government has never given a single shit about the plight of the Palestinians.
The politicians just need a bit more time steeping before they’ll be ready to pretend that they supported Palestine all along. That is of course, if the public continues to like the cause.
Sure, but this is part of the process. If we don’t call them out, they assume that everything is peachy and the status quo is their mandate. I’ll admit it’s inflammatory and over the top, but it’s sort of catchy.
If you don’t vote, you’re saying that you’re completely fine with allowing others to choose for you. Because whether you know it or not- someone will be elected with or without your participation.
This is not up for debate. This is a HARD fact.
So fold your arms and pout all you wish, but an election is happening- and as many have said, Palestine is going to face a MUCH worse under Trump.
You have completely lost the plot. The election isn’t for 7 months.
Instead of convincing Biden to stop the genocide, which he can do right now, today, you’re spending your time trying to get people to say they’re gonna vote for Biden even if he continues facilitating genocide.
And that’s a major over simplification. Biden isn’t God he can’t snap his fingers and make Israel do what he wants, certainly not without putting the alliance between the US and Israel at risk … and it’s getting to be a dangerous time in the world when having friends is important.
Just today they announced the US would be air dropping aid to Gaza. It’s not like nothing is being done. I’d like more to be done, but yeah I’m voting for him either way because the alternative is Trump. I’m not going to pretend I’m not voting for him and the many other things he’s done and his policy objectives that I like because of the actions of another country that he’s supporting… Matching decades of US policy precedent.
What you’re proposing would be a pretty radical shake up in the US approach to the middle east. The equivalent of telling all our current friends to fuck off and the people we’ve been saying fuck off to, hey do you want to be friends and let us place this critical military infrastructure in your country?
Some might even call it insane, because who is going to go for that?
Israel depends on the US but the US also depends on Israel. This isn’t a free lunch they’ve been given and they know it. They’ve also got the equivalent of Trump as their prime minister currently and I really don’t think he cares about any of that anymore than you do.
His country was attacked and his policy is scorched earth. He’s not going to stop if the US stops sending help. His “iron dome” will fall though and then he’s going to just throw everything he’s got at eliminating Palestine.
The only thing more dangerous than an angry nation is an angry nation with nothing to lose and a vendetta.
I don’t like any of this. However, for fuck sake Joe Biden is not out there in a cheerleading outfit yelling “go Israel, murder innocent civilians.” Things are rarely so simple as “just (don’t) do X.” Hell, that’s half the problem with Trump, he’ll just say shit like “well let’s just nuke the hurricane.” We end up with two problems a nuclear bomb and a hurricane.
If the Israel prime minister was anyone but Netanyahu things might be different.
Biden did not advocate for genocide. He is absolutely NOT a “genocider,” nor did he advocate for genocide at any time in his political career.
Why are there multiple US aircraft carriers trying to break the blockade of the genocidal ethnostate happening in the red sea? Why is Biden trying to pass the fasicsts border bill so that he can get more ‘bipartisan’ funding for Israel?
On the subject of the genocidal ethnostates existence, Biden has said multiple times “if Israel did not exist, the US would have to create it to protect our interests in the region”. It’s because of cynical geopolitical calculus that Israel is supported to the end, even if that end is a pile of Palestinian corpses rivalling the brutality of the worlds worst dictators.
When we go to YouTube for our arguments: we’re going to the same place that says Obama is a reptilian alien from Nibiru.
Not watching any propaganda YouTube links. Thanks. Go away now. I don’t argue with anti-democracy trolls that suggest non voting when democracy is at stake.
I guess being a Muslim and feeling pain when I see a dead baby is “privilege” nowadays. Have you considered the idea that for some people not funding a genocide is more important than anything else? You can’t keep bombing the middle east, say “orange man bad” and expect people to vote for you. I don’t give a shit at this point. I’ll vote for whoever’s running against a person who took a dime from AIPAC.
I guess being a Muslim and feeling pain when I see a dead baby is “privilege” nowadays.
Weird guess, but no.
Privilege is knowing that not voting for Biden increases the risk of a Trump presidency, and making that choice anyways. The only way it isn’t is if you genuinely believe Trump would be better.
Oh I didn’t say I’m not voting for Biden. Read again. I said I’m voting for whoever’s running against a person that took a dime from AIPAC. Fuck anyone who thinks what’s going on in Palestine is acceptable. Things wouldn’t have come to this point if morons like you actually spoke up and protested against Biden instead of calling people idiots for not voting for him. But your privileged ass didn’t do shit for genocide and now want people to go crazy over LGBTQ rights.
“I don’t like the guy who’s not cutting off funding to Israel because he thinks a soft touch is needed to talk them off the ledge, so I’m going to let the guy who handed them East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights back into office.”
That’s what fetishizers think any muslims or arabs (because they are not the same thing l3anhon’allah!!!) will do here and cite to justify letting “orange man” back into office.
Actually, voting for a 3rd party is almost always a vote for Trump. The people talking about abstaining or voting 3rd party are overwhelmingly of progressive mindset.
Nope z that isn’t how math works. You make the incorrect assumption that those people would ok d vote for Democrats if they didn’t have a choice, which all dats shows is wrong.
A vote for a third party is equivalent to not voting. That’s a fucking fact z and I’m sick of you liars trump to bully people into voting for your corporate protofascist. It’s never worked and never will, but that won’t stop you from doing it because it’s so much easier than engaging someone and validating their concerns. A
The people talking about abstaining or voting 3rd party are overwhelmingly of progressive mindset.
so it’s not a vote for trump at all. in fact, he’s running on the republican ticket, so a vote for a so-called third party would be a vote against him.
I’ll vote for whoever’s running against a person who took a dime from AIPAC.
In other words, you’ll vote for someone who has zero chance of winning.
Why bother voting at all?
By the way, you might want to look up Project 2025 and Trump’s plan to turn the U.S. into a Christian theocracy. You’ll probably feel a lot more pain as a Muslim when it’s happening to you.
Perfect time for Democrats to nominate an 81 yo guy that most people think it’s too old to run. This election won’t even be close if someone other than Biden ran. His accomplishments don’t really matter in the face of his mortality.
You know nobody else stands a chance against an incumbent president in a primary unless the president drops out on their own, so that’s a moot point just for the sake of arguing.
Like I said, DNC and Biden himself needs to realize that he should step down, given that this is a very important election. If they don’t want to do that, there’s nothing anybody else can do about it. Your point is moot and you know it. Talk to Dean Phillips and ask him how his campaign is going. Being too idealistic just for the sake of argument doesn’t help anybody. Need to be more practical.
Perfect time to teach Biden a lesson by not voting for him – or so I’ve been told by those with too much privilege and not enough brainpower.
I’m voting for Biden to stave off Jerry Lewis Hitler, as I did last cycle and Clinton before.
That said, a lot of Biden enthusiasts need to stop with the “you also need to say you like him and his politics” crap.
No one should feel enthused about always getting wildly varying degrees of bad as the only choice, merely afraid. At this point we’re voting whether to keep the water pumps on as Titanic sinks to buy a little time instead of declaring the water at our waist “fake.”
Vote to keep the pumps on, sure, but it helps nothing to pretend our rigged capitalist hellscape, that neoliberals and fascists alike declare as “the only way,” isn’t eating the itself and us and defended by both parties far above the people (we will take every measure to protect our beloved
societyeconomy! Here Fed, I’m sure you’ll ensure these relief funds trickle down after private shareholders get plenty of relief, of course), while it continues wrecking the planet for a few more short term cash grabs before the owners fly off to their prepared havens, con complete. Nox.A vote for Biden is a vote for us to not add state sponsored scapegoating, persecution, and ending bodily autonomy to our doom in motion like a cherry. Yes let’s do that(edit: meaning vote for Biden if unclear)…
https://www.noaa.gov/news-release/warmest-arctic-summer-on-record-is-evidence-of-accelerating-climate-change
…but don’t delude yourself into believing it’s any kind of salvation.
Why, are there very many evangelical democrats that need reminding?
I just want a functional fucking government
Ｎｏｔ ａｖａｉｌａｂｌｅ ｉｎ ＵＳＡ
That’s certainly not a significantly pervasive mindset – at least not around here. The general sentiment is “hold your nose and vote for him anyways”.
deleted by creator
I’m sure you’ve seen it, it’s just not happening in significant numbers. At least not around here.
AKA – you’re preaching to the choir.
It’s literally all over this thread and in most threads about Palestine. You’re lying.
… No it’s not
No one is saying you have to be enthused. They’re saying you have to pretend to be enthused. Because the strategy of “I’m going to tell everyone I hate this guy so I don’t loose any cool points with my friends who the maturity of 16 year olds” is a losing one for you and minorities and LGBT people and women and basically everyone you’re fucking over.
What’s great about this is that the lack of awareness and strategy practically guarantees that far left will never rule in the US.
What sucks about is that since vote margins are always razor thin, saying things like that might very well put Larry the Fascist Guy back to power.
They’re all over the fucking place here. It’s wild. They’re almost for certain foreign cointelpro.
I do think theyre making perfect be the enemy of, well not exactly good, but in this case the better option, but Im not so sure theyre foreign ops. If you were running a campaign like that, wouldnt you want to concentrate your messaging on the places where the greatest number of people would be to see it, or at least a lot of people? Lemmy is certainly not immune to influence campaigns, Id bet it might even be more vulnerable than most given the lack of central control that might try to inhibit one, but its also currently incredibly small and obscure as far as social networks go. Would it really be considered worth the resources, to such a campaign, in its current state?
Agreed. They’re dangerous and privileged – it really doesn’t need to be more complicated than that.
Haha, yeah nothing to see here.
There was a point in 2016 when the bernouts started spouting on about how they were now voting for Trump. It’s the exact same situation. They will disingenuously demand something that is not feasible then they will show their true colors while acting like they didn’t intend on voting Trump from the get go.
For the love of god don’t fall for it again.
Removed by mod
Imagine voting for neolibs and having the gall to call progressives privileged. Progressives are younger and lower income but sure we’re the privileged ones. You don’t give a shit about anything except character assassinating anyone you see as an enemy. There’s never any honest attempt at engagement from you people.
Imagine advocating for actions that directly increase the risk of a Trump presidency.
Grow up.
Oh no, how dare I publicly criticize a political candidate in a democracy. It’s fucking crazy that you think you’re actually one of the good guys. This is exactly the kind of shit fascists say to shut down opposition.
Go take a nap.
What more privileged position is there than the one which favors purity over pragmatism?
I think it’s more about the fact that this is the only place that doesn’t just ban them.
deleted by creator
Where do I collect my cheque?
What we’re telling y’all is that voting one more time for a neoliberal isn’t going to make a meaningful change in stopping the inevitable descent into fascism that neoliberal policies have facilitated for the last 40 or 50 years.
It’s like the saying goes: the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
You’re saying in one breath that Trump and Biden are the same and in the next that voting for either one of them equally insane. Both of those things are plainly false.
Won’t make a difference means zero difference but Trump is literally the accelerationist choice.
You need to work on your reading comprehension. I never said they are the same. I said one is the product of the other.
People have been telling you this would happen for forty or fifty years.
My reading comprehension is just fine. You need an argument and it’s not the one that you’re getting.
Surely what the Democrats are doing is effective, and Christo fascism is now less of a threat than it was in 2016 and 2020. Right? They should clearly keep doing the same thing, it’s working super well!
Actually? 😂
Yes. Actually. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/biden-trump-tied-outset-us-election-year-reutersipsos-poll-2024-01-10/
The thing is: the US is not a well-functioning democracy. It currently tries to be to some extent, but it’s system especially at the national level is set up in a way that heavily biases power towards wealthy interests and rural states, both of which tend to favor conservative politics, and which mathematically garuntees only two parties can be viable at a time, with third parties merely providing a negative effect on whatever major party is closer to them. In a well designed democratic system, there’d be a much greater variety of political groups to support such that one that actually reasonably approximates a given person’s views may exist, and voting for those groups would have practical consequence. But, we don’t have that. Voting isn’t completely inconsequential, hence one should still do it, but in our current state it’s not enough to fix things by itself. But again, since it still does something even if not enough, it makes sense to try to get as much utility as possible out of it. At the moment, the only candidates that have any chance whatsoever of winning are a neoliberal and a fascist. Now, you can argue that the popularity of the fascist is a result of the failures of neoliberal policies and so voting for the candidate supporting those policies won’t stop the popularity of the fascist ones, and that could be true- but the fascist is just going to bring about the fascist policies even faster. “The candidate that can fix things” isn’t on the ballot of either major party right now, and the system mathematically garuntees that third parties are counterproductive at this level, so voting for meaningful change isn’t an option here.
I’m not saying one should give up pushing for meaningful change. I’m saying that at the moment, getting that change is going to require more than just voting, at least at the national level and especially in the presidential election. I do not plan on voting for Biden in the coming general election because I am under some illusion that he’s going to fix things. I plan on voting for him to stall for time. It isn’t exiting, it’s downright depressing, but on balance, it’s still more moral in my view to take that option than the fascistic one, or to do nothing at all.
Exactly… It’s almost like there’s no interest to change any of that from those who benefit and continuing to vote for them or support them will continue to perpetuate this inevitable spiral.
Perhaps, but this is not one of those times.
Half the country DGAF about Gaza, but wants to remove your bodily autonomy, persecute minorities, and undermine all future elections.
They’re going to vote.
66% of americans make the “winning move” every election cycle.
Are you actually claiming that not voting will change things for the better?
Cheque? lol don’t give yourself away too hard comrade.
I know this is doing to be fucking mind-blowing to you, bust some of us are dual nationals.
Okay, so who should we vote for?
Or you could say that this issue and all the others mean so little to the Democratic Party that running anybody but Genocide Joe is off the table.
Hi, it’s me, a Palestinian American, how about don’t use my people’s plight to justify letting the guy who wants to deport my ass for liking Knaffeh get into office?
I have enough issues without truck nuts McGee feeling re-emboldened to call me Sand Nigger and Towelhead.
Thank you so much, friend. I don’t think these “Genocide Joe” people understand what Trump has planned.
I wonder if they’re even aware that he’s already announced that he wouldn’t accept any Palestinian refugees?
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-vows-expand-travel-ban-gaza-rcna120711
Or how about his plan to sacrifice the West Bank for a “Gaza Plus” without full statehood, where somehow Egypt gives up the Sainai Peninsula, all Palestinians, including Palestinians in the West Bank and Egypt, are forced to live there, and all right of return claims are nullified in perpetuity?
https://carnegieendowment.org/2018/12/11/trump-s-plan-for-israel-and-palestine-one-more-step-away-from-peace-pub-77905
And then there’s Project 2025, where Trump and Republicans plan to make the U.S. a Christian theocracy. How do they think Muslim Americans will be treated?
But none of that matters because they can call Biden “Genocide Joe” and say not to vote for him because of it.
That sounds absolutely bonkers and I don’t want any of that to come to pass. But I can’t sleep with myself at night knowing that I’m voting for someone who is going out of his way to send weapons to facilitate an active genocide.
Instead of framing this as my failing for bringing about Trump because I won’t vote for continued genocide, try to see it in terms of your (the rhetorical “your”) failing by insisting that my choice be fixed between enabling an atrocious genocide or bringing about the end of our civilization. The solution is the obvious third choice, run somebody else beside Biden. He is too unpalatable to reliably beat Trump, so don’t run him.
Insisting that we hold our nose and vote for an unelectable candidate failed with Clinton (how we got Trump the first time) and she was just unpopular. Going ahead with the same demonstrably failed strategy with someone who is a direct party to a genocide is even more foolish.
I’m not going to vote for Biden unless he reins in Israel and stops facilitating war crimes there and it’s still going to be hard knowing what he has done. I would vote for any other Democrat that runs in his place. Insulting me because I won’t vote for a candidate who is a party to war crimes won’t work. If you need my vote, you can’t ask me to do what I’m telling you I won’t do. There’s nine months to figure out how to get the DNC to run another candidate in place of Biden. If you don’t want to risk Trump again, you should consider that option.
Fine. Which one of those obvious third choices did you canvas for in your state?
Bold of you to do that in the face of a Palestinian person telling you that you’re in the wrong for that position. I guess you know what’s best for them.
Also interesting that you didn’t say that to them, but said it to me.
So you’re insisting that your role in this is really nothing more than to tell me I’m wrong for not voting for Biden and that I’m to blame for whatever comes? I’m not the only person who feels this way and I’m informing you that this strategy of yours is unduly dangerous. Digging in and trying to shame a couple of people on the internet isn’t mitigating the risk here.
That some self-proclaimed internet Palestinian says that they’re ok with somebody sending a fascist state the weapons that are being used to murder innocent people doesn’t change my view on things. If I tell you that I’m Palestinian too, will that change your mind?
Removed by mod
Dude, I’m browsing this on a phone and I’m pretty sure I responded to their post also. What are even you on about? Do you think this is some amazing rhetoric on your part?
I’m not going to vote for somebody who supports fascists and war crimes, even if you and other people do. Even if all Palestinians support him, which the Michigan uncommitted episode makes seem unlikely.
If you want my vote, you need to convince Biden to stop this situation in Gaza or convince him to step down from the primaries. I’m doing what I can on both fronts, but it will take a critical mass to force his hand.
No amount of insults or attempts at shaming me will make me support genocide, man. It’s just not going to happen. If you need to win at internet to get on with your day, then you can consider this a win. You win this argument, whatever that means.
You can now go ahead and bury your head in the sand and pretend that my viewpoint is stupid, isolated, and shouldn’t even be considered (like you probably did with Clinton in 2016). You can even blame me for ending up with Trump again if that makes you better about your clearly failed strategy at bringing people to your viewpoint.
I’m not the guy who wants Trump in office. I’m just the one who doesn’t want to vote for somebody who is repeatedly bypassing Congress to send weapons to literal fascists committing war crimes. That’s someone I can’t just hold my nose and vote for. His political career is over.
Why can’t we have any of the other people who ran in the 2020 Democratic primaries instead of Biden? This idea that it absolutely has to be Biden or else the DNC will let the country fall apart with Trump is so completely messed up.
Which one of them did you canvas for?
I like how someone actually responded to your ridiculous question and you suddenly stop mouthing off to people. What a surprise. /s
You mean the comment posted 22 minutes ago when I wasn’t active here? My apologies for not being on Lemmy on your specific schedule.
Dean Phillips, but he has little chance against an incumbent who has the support of the Party leadership. In order for anyone to solidly beat him in the primaries, Biden would need to step down or the Party would need to acknowledge that the Clinton strategy of pushing their pick even if unpopular isn’t a safe one.
Voters tend to not show up for primaries against incumbents, but unenthusiastic or marginalized voters also tend to not show up to elections. Or put another way, an incumbent winning a primary isn’t indicative of a candidate winning an election. And I have no faith that Biden can win an election. That the DNC does is frightening and delusional.
Or are you saying that you wouldn’t vote for any Democratic candidate except Biden? What on earth does the party have to lose by having Biden step down?
What exactly did you do to help Dean Phillips’ campaign?
I’ll vote for whoever will stop Trump to prevent the ongoing queer genocide you apparently don’t care much about from getting worse and taking my daughter with it.
Who do you suggest I vote for if Biden appears to be the one most likely to save my daughter’s life?
lol, it’s nothing but moving goalposts with you, is it?
Your daughter’s life doesn’t mean enough to you to help me get an electable candidate through the primaries. When she asks you what you did to save her, you can say you argued with people on the internet. Sleep with that on your conscience.
I apologize for being too seriously ill to do anything about the primaries. And also for not being a member of the Democratic Party. What did you do for Dean Phillips? I already asked you and you won’t say. Should I guess that you did essentially nothing?
I am not moving the goalposts at all. First of all, this is the very first comment I made in this thread:
https://lemmy.world/comment/8053546
Secondly, you blatantly asked me if I’d vote for any Democrat other than Biden:
The answer is yes, if they can beat Trump. I have no idea why you think answering your question is moving the goalposts. That seems like just as silly a lie as when you accused me of supporting genocide- the very thing I said people keep telling me I’m doing by voting for Biden to save my daughter’s life in my very first post. Surprise, surprise.
Back in reality, the choices are a) vote for Biden, b) vote for Trump, and c) don’t vote. That’s it, those are your choices.
Just know that options b and c help Trump. You can bend and twist reality in any shape you want, but that is the actual effect of those choices.
So ask yourself, do you want Trump as president?
Jesus Christ. The US government has never given a single shit about the plight of the Palestinians.
The politicians just need a bit more time steeping before they’ll be ready to pretend that they supported Palestine all along. That is of course, if the public continues to like the cause.
Sure, but this is part of the process. If we don’t call them out, they assume that everything is peachy and the status quo is their mandate. I’ll admit it’s inflammatory and over the top, but it’s sort of catchy.
It is catchy, I’ll give you that.
What’s more realistic: Shaming everyone in the country until they vote for someone doing genocide, or telling Biden to stop facilitating a genocide?
If you don’t vote, you’re saying that you’re completely fine with allowing others to choose for you. Because whether you know it or not- someone will be elected with or without your participation.
This is not up for debate. This is a HARD fact.
So fold your arms and pout all you wish, but an election is happening- and as many have said, Palestine is going to face a MUCH worse under Trump.
You have completely lost the plot. The election isn’t for 7 months.
Instead of convincing Biden to stop the genocide, which he can do right now, today, you’re spending your time trying to get people to say they’re gonna vote for Biden even if he continues facilitating genocide.
And that’s a major over simplification. Biden isn’t God he can’t snap his fingers and make Israel do what he wants, certainly not without putting the alliance between the US and Israel at risk … and it’s getting to be a dangerous time in the world when having friends is important.
Just today they announced the US would be air dropping aid to Gaza. It’s not like nothing is being done. I’d like more to be done, but yeah I’m voting for him either way because the alternative is Trump. I’m not going to pretend I’m not voting for him and the many other things he’s done and his policy objectives that I like because of the actions of another country that he’s supporting… Matching decades of US policy precedent.
He can stop sending them the tools they’re using to carry out genocide. Ronald Reagan merely threatened to do it once and they came to heel.
Israel depends on the US for its existence. They will do what is required for financial, military, and diplomatic aid.
How friendly do we look when we’re facilitating a genocide, and bombing Yemen for trying to do something about it?
Dropping food does not make up for our client state machine gunning people trying to get food.
If the US really wanted to make friends, they’d oppose the existence of a zionist ethnostate.
https://www.legion.org/landingzone/260767/why-america-cares-about-israel’s-security
What you’re proposing would be a pretty radical shake up in the US approach to the middle east. The equivalent of telling all our current friends to fuck off and the people we’ve been saying fuck off to, hey do you want to be friends and let us place this critical military infrastructure in your country?
Some might even call it insane, because who is going to go for that?
Israel depends on the US but the US also depends on Israel. This isn’t a free lunch they’ve been given and they know it. They’ve also got the equivalent of Trump as their prime minister currently and I really don’t think he cares about any of that anymore than you do.
His country was attacked and his policy is scorched earth. He’s not going to stop if the US stops sending help. His “iron dome” will fall though and then he’s going to just throw everything he’s got at eliminating Palestine.
The only thing more dangerous than an angry nation is an angry nation with nothing to lose and a vendetta.
I don’t like any of this. However, for fuck sake Joe Biden is not out there in a cheerleading outfit yelling “go Israel, murder innocent civilians.” Things are rarely so simple as “just (don’t) do X.” Hell, that’s half the problem with Trump, he’ll just say shit like “well let’s just nuke the hurricane.” We end up with two problems a nuclear bomb and a hurricane.
If the Israel prime minister was anyone but Netanyahu things might be different.
It is not. We took the same steps for Apartheid South Africa.
You know what’s worse than an angry nation? An angry nation with more weapons.
He is giving them the bombs they are using to carry out a genocide, there is no meaningful difference.
My vote has never made a difference. I still vote despite it being pointless.
deleted by creator
Biden did not advocate for genocide. He is absolutely NOT a “genocider,” nor did he advocate for genocide at any time in his political career.
This is blatant misinformation, and it has been reported as such.
Why are there multiple US aircraft carriers trying to break the blockade of the genocidal ethnostate happening in the red sea? Why is Biden trying to pass the fasicsts border bill so that he can get more ‘bipartisan’ funding for Israel?
On the subject of the genocidal ethnostates existence, Biden has said multiple times “if Israel did not exist, the US would have to create it to protect our interests in the region”. It’s because of cynical geopolitical calculus that Israel is supported to the end, even if that end is a pile of Palestinian corpses rivalling the brutality of the worlds worst dictators.
You are obviously a propagandist.
deleted by creator
When we go to YouTube for our arguments: we’re going to the same place that says Obama is a reptilian alien from Nibiru.
Not watching any propaganda YouTube links. Thanks. Go away now. I don’t argue with anti-democracy trolls that suggest non voting when democracy is at stake.
Blocking you now.
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-announces-us-will-airdrop-food-aid-gaza-rcna141436
deleted by creator
So we’ve gone from ‘Trump would not be worse, worse literally isn’t possible’ to ‘Biden isn’t doing enough’. That was fast!
Said not a single person in this thread, except you.
deleted by creator
Why not both?
I guess being a Muslim and feeling pain when I see a dead baby is “privilege” nowadays. Have you considered the idea that for some people not funding a genocide is more important than anything else? You can’t keep bombing the middle east, say “orange man bad” and expect people to vote for you. I don’t give a shit at this point. I’ll vote for whoever’s running against a person who took a dime from AIPAC.
Weird guess, but no.
Privilege is knowing that not voting for Biden increases the risk of a Trump presidency, and making that choice anyways. The only way it isn’t is if you genuinely believe Trump would be better.
Orange man is bad. Of course he is.
Oh I didn’t say I’m not voting for Biden. Read again. I said I’m voting for whoever’s running against a person that took a dime from AIPAC. Fuck anyone who thinks what’s going on in Palestine is acceptable. Things wouldn’t have come to this point if morons like you actually spoke up and protested against Biden instead of calling people idiots for not voting for him. But your privileged ass didn’t do shit for genocide and now want people to go crazy over LGBTQ rights.
If you’re voting for Biden, then you’re pretty clearly not the type of person I’m calling privileged, right?
Don’t call me a moron. And don’t claim that I didn’t speak out against Biden. Be better than that.
Fuck off with your privilege bullshit. You don’t know any of the people you’re talking to. Straight up character assassination.
So childish.
“I don’t like the guy who’s not cutting off funding to Israel because he thinks a soft touch is needed to talk them off the ledge, so I’m going to let the guy who handed them East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights back into office.”
That’s what fetishizers think any muslims or arabs (because they are not the same thing l3anhon’allah!!!) will do here and cite to justify letting “orange man” back into office.
Do you really think orange stain isn’t going to start absolutely pouring money into Israel? If you think it’s bad now…
In the US we are currently stuck with a 2 party system, a vote for any third party candidate is a throwaway vote in a presidential election.
Actually, voting for a 3rd party is almost always a vote for Trump. The people talking about abstaining or voting 3rd party are overwhelmingly of progressive mindset.
Nope z that isn’t how math works. You make the incorrect assumption that those people would ok d vote for Democrats if they didn’t have a choice, which all dats shows is wrong.
A vote for a third party is equivalent to not voting. That’s a fucking fact z and I’m sick of you liars trump to bully people into voting for your corporate protofascist. It’s never worked and never will, but that won’t stop you from doing it because it’s so much easier than engaging someone and validating their concerns. A
Is this even English?
so it’s not a vote for trump at all. in fact, he’s running on the republican ticket, so a vote for a so-called third party would be a vote against him.
Removed by mod
In other words, you’ll vote for someone who has zero chance of winning.
Why bother voting at all?
By the way, you might want to look up Project 2025 and Trump’s plan to turn the U.S. into a Christian theocracy. You’ll probably feel a lot more pain as a Muslim when it’s happening to you.
Fuck Putin, and his puppet Trump.
There are millions of people who will read the first half of your comment, think it’s a good idea and skip the rest. What have you done?
Or billions, even. Billions and billions. Good people, the best kind of people. I know them, personally.
Perfect time for Democrats to nominate an 81 yo guy that most people think it’s too old to run. This election won’t even be close if someone other than Biden ran. His accomplishments don’t really matter in the face of his mortality.
Did you canvas for anyone else to challenge him in your state’s primary?
Because you had time.
You know nobody else stands a chance against an incumbent president in a primary unless the president drops out on their own, so that’s a moot point just for the sake of arguing.
So “this election won’t even be close if someone other than Biden ran” but it wasn’t worth trying to primary him?
Like I said, DNC and Biden himself needs to realize that he should step down, given that this is a very important election. If they don’t want to do that, there’s nothing anybody else can do about it. Your point is moot and you know it. Talk to Dean Phillips and ask him how his campaign is going. Being too idealistic just for the sake of argument doesn’t help anybody. Need to be more practical.
That’s a lot of words for “I didn’t try.”
Oh right, because individual citizens can beat the entire democratic party machine on their own. What a ridiculous fucking comment.
That’s how grassroots democracy works. But it’s much easier to sit on your ass and berate people on the internet.
Behold! The beating, indifferent and apathetic heart of the American body politic!