- cross-posted to:
- lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world
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“But I just cared about the economy (more than civil rights, democracy, the rule of law, or basic human decency.)”
For me, this is the most maddening comment about our situation. The economy has done better under democratic leadership since we’ve kept track.
It’s worrying. This demonstrates (again) how people can be manipulated into supporting anything if tickled the right way.
I know some very good people who voted for the incompetent, confused and weak Jabba-the-Orange. I judge them to be extremely stupid.
All this, except change “Trump” to “literally any Republican in the last 50 years”
They’ve been dog whistling at racists to try to win elections their “kill the new deal and bring back feudalism” economic platform couldn’t at least since Goldwater ran for the presidency
I told a former friend of mine that I’d lost so much respect for her judgment of character that I couldn’t continue pretending not to look down on her and that it would be best if we stopped hanging out together.
No regrets.
If they were capable of feeling shame, this might hurt them.
They’re capable of feeling shame, just not for what you or I feel shame for.
The trick is to find out what hurts them.
You’ve got to make them an outcast to their in group.
So stupid shit like pointing out their hands are nicely manicured (if they are a man) that’s why they wear lifts and shoes too large for their feet.
Or for women you call them a man. That’s why they do it to every woman they hate.
Just observe them. They lay their cards right on the table.
The problem, of course, lies in striking the balance between speaking to them in their own terms, and reinforcing the values that many of their terms reflect.
I judge you for all that and also for your choice of political party because they represent all those things.
Unpopular opinion: if you base your arguments in political debates around morals, you’ll only be able to convince people who share your moral standpoint.
Reading through this thread I understand the gist of your statement but you never said what you would recommend?
Materialist and power analysis. Trump does things because it suits him materially. Not cause he’s evil. So does Elon Musk. Ask what Trump has actually done for the Trump supporter.
Everything is going to shit in the US, and instead of doubling down on “how does renaming the Gulf of Mexico lower the prices of eggs?”, online libs keep complaining on how the vote turned out and that you gan’t convince MAGAs.
I guess that’s part of donvicts power: he causes outrage which stops effective organization against him, with everyone firefighting against his latest outrage, instead of remaining focused on his downfall.
Don’t forget what already worked. After his “muslim ban”, diregt action did shut some airports down, which softened the blow.
Fuck that, this is just another rendition of the centrist/both sides bad/fascist apologizer number. Everyone that voted for this deserves to be ridiculed and called out to face the reality that they have forced upon the rest of us. Maybe then the lesson will stick. We tried the polite way and millions of people spat in our face. We do not have to take the higher road.
I get the sinking feeling that a lot of Trump supporters are at a point where they simply won’t trust anything we tell them.
They’ve skillfully avoided the truth up to this point. They’ve drank enough kool-aid that they’ll remain resolute in their “rightness” through shitstorm after self-imposed shitstorm. It’s not about facts with them; it’s about their feels. Their feels tell them that they are right and everyone in their
cult“community” agrees, so they must be correct.The last thing that will convince them they were wrong, would be screamed realities from people they already don’t trust.
Name one person who was convinced to do something by being shamed. You’re bust making them double down.
I don’t think the point here is “I should be able to convince you”, it’s “We’re not friends anymore, because you’re a genuine piece of shit from a moral standpoint”.
Good luck with trying to improve the political landscape while not talking to a large part of the population, then. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Have you talked to Trump voters, man?
Most of them are not salvageable.
It’s the same essential mistake that the Harris campaign committed this past election which may have lost us our democracy permanently - a favorite mistake of the Democratic Party seeking to fend off its left-wing by showing (or, in this case, ‘showing’) that bipartisanship and reaching ‘across the aisle’ is a winning formula. Trying to reason with right-wing voters in this country is a lost fucking cause. Reasoning with those who’ve tuned out due to apathy or despair is the way forward - assuming, of course, that votes matter going forward, which is far from guaranteed.
You’re confusino peer to peer communication with top-down propaganda. Not the same thing, homie.
Lord.
Ah yes. Last conversation I had with one they insisted they saw a bus sized drone in the sky. If I’m rude or not improving the political landscape then lol oh well guess I’m not then.
Did it have FAA compliant lighting? It’s awful nice of the aliens to comply with our laws before arriving.
Great! Have fun while the situation gets worse!
The U.S. is a threat to everyone on the planet. You’re in this boat with us.
Yeah, I know. I just can’t do anything better to help yo^u other than post on the internet and organi’e locally.
I agree with you but Im having difficulty figuring out how to convert people who voted to place people in camps.
Step one: don’t try to “convert” anyone.
Rather, listen to their worries. You gan point out discrepancies with their world view and show your disapproval if they’re really bringing out the racist shit, but don’t try to sell them your ideology.
Also, remember that it takes time to change someone’s viewpoint. You need to be patient.
Rather, listen to their worries. You gan point out discrepancies with their world view and show your disapproval if they’re really bringing out the racist shit, but don’t try to sell them your ideology.
So the civility politics route the Dems have been trying for the past 40 years.
How’s that worked out?
So the civility politics route the Dems have been trying for the past 40 years.
Non-sequitur much?
In what way have the Dems ever listened to any non-millionaire?
Man, that is all the fucking Dems have done for longer than I’ve been alive. Ass-patting rural voters and telling them how valid their concerns are, and trying to compromise and show how very ‘reasonable’ we are.
You wanna track how the rural vote has trended since?
We’ve not increased our share by validating their basic positions and pointing out contradictions in the details that they’ll willfully forget a day fucking later.
If Trump voters could be convinced they wouldn’t have voted trump, so this doesn’t change my calculus.
If Trump voters could be convinced
Are you sure you’re actually in favor of democracy, if you have such a misanthropic worldview?
I have so far seen zero evidence that anything Trump does will convince his voters that he’s the evil shitstain he is, so what I’m not in favor of is the futility of trying to convince anyone, when 8 years of reality and headlines have failed to do the same. I have magas in my family and they will perform literally any gymnastics necessary to absolve Trump of guilt for anything he’s done.
So yeah, if basing my opinions off of the evidence I’m surrounded by daily makes me misanthropic, then sure, you can call me that if it makes you feel happy.
Sorry, I don’t think I’m interested in such moralistic political discussions where you constantly bring up how someone is “evil”.
That’s OK!
Are you sure you’re actually in favor of democracy, if you have such a misanthropic worldview?
Democracy, as the saying goes, is the worst system of government ever devised - except for all the others.
People are stupid, in every fucking system.
The difference is, in a democracy, you have to (theoretically, and depending on the health of the democratic system) get a massive percentage of very stupid or very malicious people to make stupid decisions on behalf of the polity, whereas in narrower forms of government, you only need a small percentage of very stupid or very malicious people who are well-placed.
Democracy is a safeguard, not an aegis, not a panacea. All systems of government are ultimately only as good as the people who comprise them; and while I’d sooner trust “The entire adult population” over “A self-selected cabal”, that does not mean the former will always make good, moral, sensible, or even self-interested decisions.
Famously didn’t work for republicans! Oh wait.
How are the republicans a counterexamplex o.O
By being elected into power. Clearly, it worked for them.
What do you mean by “it”?
Going all-in on appealing to those who are already aligned with them or unaligned, and ignoring or degrading the opposition instead of trying to sway them.
So… how is that strategy going to help progressive politics, exactly? O.o
So… how is that strategy going to help progressive politics, exactly? O.o
You’re asking how choosing to focus on getting out the vote instead of appealing to opposition voters is going to help, in an electoral environment that saw 1/3 of the country say “I don’t care who wins”?
“It’s just another Voting Culture™”
If you voted for either imperial candidate…
Go on bb. Say it with your whole chest. These ellipsis look bad on you. You believe it, say it. Tell us how fascists and liberals are the exact same thing. Go on. We are waiting.
Fascists and liberals are not the exact same thing. Liberals prefer to implement the final solution on a slightly slower timetable and in stages, while fascists are more inclined to just cut loose all undesirables as fast as possible.
"The oppressed should work towards their own murder, in solidarity with all the other oppressed folk being murdered!
It won’t stop anyone from being murdered, but it’ll make those of us not in any danger feel really pure 😊"
I’m not having that argument again. I understand the position that they were equally bad, and I support the rights of folks who couldn’t vote for either of them because of that. But while I do acknowledge that US imperialism is not just a meme, I had to work with what I was given, and that was bad or less bad. I chose less bad.
I respect that others saw it differently and that’s all I have to say on the matter.
I understand the position that they were equally bad
I don’t. Every single day proves that over and over again. I understand being an idealistic young person with no practical experience, but in those situations the intelligent thing to do is to listen to people and not triple-down on the GRU playbook.
Those who are neither idealistic or young, who couldn’t be arsed to do the one thing that would have helped defeat fascism need to understand what a fuckup they are.
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I support the rights of folks who couldn’t vote for either of them because of that. But while I do acknowledge that US imperialism is not just a meme, I had to work with what I was given
Exceedingly well put, I don’t know why that simple little bit of understanding is so impossible for some Harris supporters
Thanks! This topic is a sticky one, it’s easy to get angry (and I have) when everyone has good intentions and those good intentions seem to conflict. I’ve probably been a jerk about it in the past, and in the moment I might be again in the future, but I try to see where folks are coming from when I can.
