Does the reddit style format inherently make for a toxic environment? Or is it a culture of toxicity from the influx of reditors? For lack of a beter example, on stackoverflow, when someone down votes you, it comes with a comment saying how to improve. On mastodon, people can’t downvote you. These platforms are a joy to use, lemmy is depressing if you post. Its depressing because every post or comment, no mater the quality comes with downvotes, and usually no criticism to accompany it, you are left not knowing if youve made a mistake, or if its just trolls, bots, or idiots. At the end you feel insulted not improved. What do you think?
Just post what you want to post and ignore the votes. A few downvotes is to be expected. Try not to read into them so much.
Alternative way to think about it: 10% of people are insufferable assholes. Do you want them to be happy with what you say?
That’s a great way to think about it.
Mastodon was very depressing for me, this follower centric self presentation stuff is super not my style, it don’t want it to be about me, I most likely suck but I say smart things some times, so I want it to be about the stuff I say.
Plus I don’t mind being downvoted into oblivion. I actually think that this can be a good thing. It means that there was something at least controversial about what I posted so I might be wrong or have to argue better.
Lastly, mastodon is too much safe space and filter bubble. I want to read things from people that I disagree with and I want to argue with them in good faith. When I tried this on mastodon, I got misquoted, blocked, harassed… You name it.
Thank you for your insight!
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I’m not trying to be negative here with you - but anyone complaining about downvoted will often get another downvote from me. Say what you want to say, stand by your convictions, and don’t worry about what the internet thinks about that.
I upvote anyone who disagrees with me, as long as they’re not a complete brute about it.
I don’t see the poster explicitly complaining about getting downvoted. How I read it is that they think that downvoting encourages people to be negative and weaponise their downvote. And, given what you’ve said, they’re spot on and you inadvertently proved their point.
I saw the post more as someone who is too worried about what the group will think of their comment to allow for dissent.
That being said, what I meant about people who complain about downvotes was the old Reddit trope of “edit: really? Downvote me for asking a question?” On a comment less than an hour old.
I’m not upset of complaining, I’m observing and philosophizing, this has been an intellectual pursuit, thanks for the reply
This sparks a few different thoughts for me:
- I believe there are a few Lemmy instances that don’t have downvotes enabled. (Beehaw might be one of them, but don’t quote me on that.) If downvotes are a stress point for you, you could try joining one of those instances.
- I personally find both upvotes and downvotes to be useful as a way for me to quickly see the community’s reaction to a piece of content. If I’m scrolling through my feed and see a post with many downvotes and few upvotes, for example, I know that post is unlikely to interest me and will move on. Conversely, a highly upvoted post or one with a mix of both upvotes and downvotes is more likely to have a good conversation in the comments in my experience.
- If I make a post that receives a large number of downvotes - or if most of my posts tend to be downvoted - that’s a signal to me that I’m either not communicating my message well (confusing, passive aggressive, etc.) or that my message itself may not be welcome (hate speech, misinformation, etc.). In either case, I use that as a mental trigger for me to reflect on my posts rather than a reason to become unhappy with the community/platform as a whole.
I would also add that getting a post mass downvoted can be a sign that a community might not be a good fit for you.
Like, using reddit as an example, if you see someone spreading anti-lgbt hate and getting upvoted, but when you try to be like “Hey that’s not cool” or explain why they’re wrong you get massively downvoted, it can be a really good sign that maybe it’s not a great place.
I agree, and I would extend this thought to also include situations where it’s simply the wrong audience for your post. The content itself may not have anything wrong with it, but if you post a casual joke or comment without much depth in a community that’s built on deep conversations and well thought out replies, for example, you’re likely to be downvoted simply because the context wasn’t appropriate.
Great point.
Thank you, this is very helpful and well thought out
Someone praising Stack Overflow, that’s a new one. The most criticized thing about SO is the toxicity and elitism of the users. Downvoting almost always comes with no explanation there.
Well hold on there, im not tryna praise them. I think we need a free and federated alternative. I only mean to say that an answer always has some verbal feedback on it.
The incrediblely low quality of the feedback is legendary there, though.
“How do I X?”
“Do not X. - Fin”
That’s the wrong way to go about things. You show them a clearly incorrect example of a code you need help with but say that it’s a good code and don’t believe anyone can do better. People will jump over themselves to correct you and provide helpful solutions.
Ah yes, Murphy’s Law. Instead of asking a question, just post the wrong answer and someone will come along to correct you.
I barely posted on Reddit due to the thought of people hating what I said or posted 😊 I think here is more friendly since it’s not huge, I share what I like and if people don’t agree that’s cool! As long as it makes someone happy it’s worth it ✨
For lack of a beter example, on stackoverflow, when someone down votes you, it comes with a comment saying how to improve. … These platforms are a joy to use
I don’t know what part of the internet you are from, but where I am from, Stackoverflow is looked down on as the quintessential example of toxic behaviour.
I’ve found some of the most dismissive people in tiny stack exchange groups, and experienced similar unexplained downvotes.
What SO, Reddit, and Lemmy maybe all have in common I think, is people tend to agree or disagree based on their convictions, as opposed to agreeing or disagreeing as a means of interaction.
I guess this puts the conflict and disagreement front and center. But at least then I know where people stand.
Perhaps it’s important to not take opinions too personally, and remember that incencere agreement has its own problems.
I disagree about SO, though I am not a fan of it for other reasons. Interesting thought about acting on convictions. Thanks.
I’m thinking you care too much about the thoughtless reactions of anonymous strangers.
Remember… In this game, the points don’t matter.its strange because its not the disapproval that gets me, its not knowing why. I guess the lesson is that if someone did not even say why, its not really something anyone actually cared about.
This is exactly it. They don’t care about your post or you or anyone really. For them, it just feels good to bring down others.
i hope/believe that the intent is rarely malicious, that its not really a significant thing at all on that side.
People breed toxicity, especially if you disagree with them. The more people a site has, the shittier it is. People suck.
Your opinion makes me angry 😡
Fuck you. Imma tear down your fucking walls, Gorbachof.
I’m gonna fuck down your tearing walls gorbachof.
Got ‘em!
Screw you asshole. More people make a site better!
Go buy a vowel ya fuckin prick.
Not necessarily.
A few years ago, when there was another Reddit Exodus people were suggesting to go to voat. But holy hell was that place toxic.
And tbh, maybe I just picked the wrong instance to sign up on, but right now, I feel like lemmy is more toxic than Reddit, too, despite still being a fraction of the size.
And people say to just not care about it. But it kinda does matter. Bullying and brigading can create an in-group and the rest. To the point that you can sway public opinion, even elections. tl;dr: OP makes a valid pointI don’t think our points are mutually exclusive. Small sites can be shitty while the trend remains that sites get shittier as they get bigger.
Fair point
You think Lemmy is more toxic than reddit? I’ve seen the opposite so far. I wonder if this boils down to what communities we are a part of? It makes sense though, since most of lemmy is likely 30+ yrs old and have become jaded by reddit already.
Also, yes, voat was awful. It was mostly alt right assholes from what I remember.
do birds fly? do ducks duck?
I don’t think the format had anything to do with it, considering it was much more like Lemmy is now when I first joined 11 years ago and I’ve seen the same decline in other social mediums that didn’t share formats as Reddit. It’s just what happens when you get enough people together in one place. The abundance of dumb fucks and bad actors simply take over.
Downvotes are not a reflection on you, they are a representation of how much everyone else agrees or disagrees.
I don’t personally want the downvotes hidden or removed like how it is on Youtube.
I like the way it was here. Points seem to be working correctly or did. I think it’s a bad idea to put point totals on a users profile for everyone to see. I don’t think totals are or should be important. But upvotes and downvotes are indicators of how much value a reader thinks a post/comment has. You can’t tell the temperature in a room without numbers. But I would rather not see a reddit-like karma system.
Yet every app seemingly wants to show me a total :(
Yeah, I wish there was a feature that lets you switch between total-only and lemmy format.
they did remove downvotes on youtube tho :(
This is why I’m in favor. I’m not the hugest fan, but if the alternative is YouTube or facebooks like system then I’ll take the downvotes. Otherwise you get the low quality like farms where minions memes are uploaded everywhere and there’s no way to say “we hate these, stop posting them”
lol that is a very good point
I’d like an option, user side perhaps that just tucks it away, doesn’t remove it just don’t show it
It can be done on an instance basis, there are instances without downvoting enabled.
I just saw that lemmy.world has an option to hide it, shame I don’t see an option for it on memmy, I do see a hide total scores but doesn’t appear to do anything.
Yearning for affirmations via fake internet points is the toxic part, not the format of a website.
Took the words right out of my mouth. Take my downvote.
Yes, although your comment seems to me to be correct, it misses the point of the question, and the actual question has been answered quite well already by others. Surely the format is not in and of itself toxic, and I personally find it a little strange to think of a format as toxic, though I suppose one could create such a format. Rather, the question is weather the format of the website encourages or indues so called “toxic” behavior or leads to the perception there of, among groups of humans using software in the format in question. Maybe because “yearning for affirmation” is a near universal human trait and the format of the site provides its human users access to a convenient but unreliable metric by which they may measure the approval of their peers. Some of us suppress this drive for approval with to strong self awareness or self esteem or lack it entirely due to mental illness, but it is in almost every human, and of course, our need for approval is of course a double edged blade. It makes society possible, and makes us hate to take part at times.
People on Lemmy try to rationalize that they’ll use the downvote as intended (off topic content) but our ape brains eventually just make downvote = I don’t like said thing.
I wish we could do away with upvotes and downvotes altogether.
For me it always was about “Do I want to see posts/comments like this?” If yes, upvote, if not, downvote, if I don’t care, then nothing. Off-topic is for reporting to mods, not downvoting IMO.
I think having some form of “I agree with this” or similar helps to make you feel engaged with the content (for better or worse).
I think perhaps the actual person responsible for the post or comment shouldn’t be able to see the results, though, otherwise it just becomes another ego building thing, and you see people strategising explicitly to build karma like on reddit. instead, the author should see a rating, like “slight approval” “mixed feelings” “strong dissent”, etc.
How dare you. As a former redditor now lemming I would wilt into a shriveled, frail, incontinent, barely conscious entity without the ego-fueling fire of my all-powerful downvote.
/s
I agree. Upvotes and downvotes are rubbish.
Imo, downvotes is just a disagreement. Being offended by it sounds like a “you” problem, we all have to deal with it.
Upvotes normally give me answers I need for at that moment. Downvotes makes me reassess myself.
I dont think you must read to much into the downvotes. Understand the situation why people might have downvoted you, understand why other people get upvoted, assess the situation. And most of all, understand that not everybody will always agree with you
What? people wont agree with me? LIES! (<-- that is a joke). I’m not offended, and i agree, i here, am a truth seeker looking for insight, thanks!
During my time on reddit, I’ve learnt to appreciate downvotes. Silent feedback is much better than passive-aggressive replies that serve no purpose other than letting the person vent out.
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I got majorly downvoted once for sharing my opinion on not wanting to travel to a foreign country alone as a woman. A lot of flippant comments too. Like okay, this is not the sub for me. I still can’t believe I was attacked like I was.
idk, it sounds good, but to me its a lot like getting a grade with no comments (for the sake of example)
