I get that this is not the hill to die on in this meme, but the tracks should really be reversed.
This implies “doing nothing” will only sacrifice Palestine, while “pulling the lever” (i.e. voting) will sacrifice Palestine+all other at risk groups.
Otherwise, this really is a classic trolly dilemma. We can’t stop the train and someone is going to get killed.
This meme also implies that the current US strategy is not to fund Ukraine just enough to take Russia to Hell with it. It also implies the Democrats don’t rely on anti-LGBTQ votes because one single comment made by Waltz. This meme also implies Democrat are pushing laws to combat police brutality (at least fix this at local or state levels in cities where they hold the majority).
The Democrats here now have worse arguments than the tankies.
Kamala literally used to fight for sexual assault victims and such
Walz used to fight for his school kids
Trump bragged on Howard Stern about perving on young girls and is a convicted rapist
You do realize there is both a house and Senate right, and unless they have control of both, they can’t necessarily just push laws. That’s what politics is
And in the past few years, the Republicans have only been interested in sabotage it seems (if Trump loses this election, there is a better chance they will be more willing to work when Democrats)
They’re not relying on this shit. The most commonly cited reason even by Republicans voting for Harris is that Trump is a dictator that wants to ruin the country
Right, and one of the main, basic ways in which one can consider the trolley problem is that, regardless of the difference in outcomes, pulling the lever makes you morally responsible for what happens.
Also not pulling the lever makes you morally responsible if you “stand by and do nothing”
That’s another way of looking at it
Decisions have consequences, doing nothing is a decision.
“doing nothing is a decision” is a legitimate position you can argue for, but it is not some kind of settled moral fact that you can just assert without any justification.
It’s less a moral fact and more a fact of life. If you don’t pay bills you get late fees then stop getting the service. If you don’t study you don’t do as well as studying a little or a lot. If you don’t make a move on the girl you like someone else will and/or she’ll move on. If you don’t stop facism…
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
In politics the don’t vote and vote third party are essentially the same of doing nothing until ftfp is fixed.
That’s literally the point
Unless the lever is in another country and you’re just paying the guy pulling the lever, then “there’s nothing I can do”.
That’s hotly debated by moral philosophers and ethicists.
Yes that’s my point exactly, people love to dogpile on anyone who doesn’t jump at the easy consequentialist solution, but there are other valid interpretations
Yeah, but that would require an understanding of the trolley problem as a philosophical dilemma, and how are you gonna use that to yell at people you hate?
Hasn’t everyone watched the Good Place?
We can’t stop the train and someone is going to get killed.
We really fucking can, it just requires more people to care enough to be willing to do more than the bare fucking minimum of participating in this theatre those profiting from war have set out for us, and look outside of the system you have indoctrinated to believe isn’t only the default, but the best (and if this doesn’t demonstrate that fact to you, I honestly think you’re beyond help).
I fully believe the system we live in is broken, and is nowhere near “the best”. But the system does have many people who are indoctrinated, and many who benefit from it too greatly to make me believe we have sufficient time to derail it before some of the death implied in this meme comes.
But if you have a plan more tangible then telling people “wake up sheeple!”, then I’m ready to hear it. And if it’s actually convincing, then I’m ready to help.
But randomly telling people they have been indoctrinated, declaring it to be self evident, and then accusing them of being beyond help if they don’t see it, is nothing more than pointless moral masturbation. Maybe it makes you feel better, but it’s not helping nor convincing anyone.
Let me know what your plan is when you have it figured out. In the mean time, I’m going to go back to helping who I can.
I’m hoping once Harris takes office that she can improve the Isreal/Palestine situation. But I suspect for now she has to keep her cards close or she’ll lose some key support.
Politics has been an old-boys club for a long time. She probably has to tread carefully until she knows if she has a majority or not.
I actually wonder if she has a different stance on Israel but simply will not/cannot talk about it because she is also the VP and it’s a “bad look to go against the boss,” so to speak.
She’s a Democrat. She will follow whatever AIPAC says. It’s foolish to wish otherwise. The president is not a monarch and must pick a few key issues to make changes to. The rest is up to the legislature.
My musing is not the sole reason why I’m voting for Harris, but you are correct that it is not exactly up to her (which of course kind of undermines the continuous claims I see from people saying she could end the genocide right this second).
I appreciate the optimism but Harris being elected is far from a foregone conclusion. Far, far. Between tricks and the electoral college, it needs to be a blowout to win. And we’re not seeing a blowout so far. I am hopeful as hell, but not affording optimism.
I’m hoping the same thing. Politics is a complicated game. The first person to say they understand how it all works is the first person I wouldn’t trust to explain any of it to a third grader.
We’re all making best guesses on almost everthing.
She won’t do shit cause she has to get reelected in four years.
She won’t do shit cause she
has to get reelected in four years.like the rest of the democratic party don’t give a shit about Palestinians, nor disturbing the status quo.FTFY
They are already in office, they are the vice president of the united states, the second highest charge in the country
That was the single most stupid take I have read today.
Bravo.
Aren’t they the vice president of the united states?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vice_President_of_the_United_States
Presides over the Senate, but can’t even vote in it. Unless there’s a tie. And she’s an advisor to the president. Literally less actual power than a random senator.
And then you get offended when people call you russian bots. You’re either knowingly or unknowingly spreading misinformation. In the end, the result is the same.
“The vice president of the United States (VPOTUS) is the second-highest office in the executive branch of the U.S. federal government, after the president of the United States, and ranks first in the presidential line of succession.”
Second highest office
Second highest office, but with less power than a random senator, as I’ve said. You’ve brought it up by implying that she’s in power now and she’s not doing anything with that power. And I’m telling you and everyone reading that it’s bullshit because despite the name and ranking, she’s powerless. Can’t even vote in the Senate.
Lmfao, don’t hold your breath (not that anyone putting any faith in to her actually cares)
anybody on the left withholding their vote at this point fundamentally disbelieves in a system with exactly two discrete options, so this type of post doesn’t persuade anybody
fundamentally disbelieves in a system with exactly two discrete options
except the polls are exactly about two discrete options. “not believing” in it is like not believing in gravity. it doesn’t make you philosopher, it makes you dumb moron.
which is what people said before biden was replaced
Anyone who doesn’t “believe” that we have the system we have is beyond reaching
Yeah I don’t “believe” our system best serves the common good. But I sure as hell will vote for Kamala because it’s very clear that is my best course of action to serve the common good. Voting for a third party won’t lead to a system where more parties have a voice, it will help Trump get into power, where only a single party has a voice, and any other voice will be silenced
Voting for a third party won’t lead to a system where more parties have a voice…
Yes it will. If a 3rd party gets 5% of the national vote they qualify for federal election funding which would make them more viable next time around.
which is what people said before biden was replaced
Tbf, the Democratic party nomination process is not a 2-party system. They did say that back then, and they were wrong to do so - hoping that people wouldn’t notice that difference.
But now we are talking about the real deal, the thing that they were trying to falsely tie an equivalence to, the actual vote for the actual presidency. Democracy in the USA may not last the decade regardless, but voting one way is for ditching it in favor of Project 2025 and among other things, ironically enough even moar-er support for genocide, while the other is a vote for hopefully a little better than the current status quo.
Both offer short term pain and long term destruction… but not equally so.
they’re not suggesting a third party candidate can win
they’re suggesting that the democratic platform can shift
How though? And more importantly, why? Like, what “leeway” does Kamala have to say anything different than she already has, which she could shift to?
Maybe after she wins yes, but at this point the choices are Trump vs. not-Trump, so I don’t see how a vote for a third-party would help in this case. At one point, with Bernie Sanders vs. Hillary Clinton there were different thoughts about how a vote for Bernie would cause Hillary to shift more towards the left - but most of that again gets back to the nomination process, not the final show-down between the two parties, and after that was a disastrous example of how voting for the 3rd-party candidate didn’t help the democratic party shift, except in the sense that it handed literally hundreds and hundreds of judicial nominees to the Republican party that, among other things, ended the protections of Roe v. Wade.
Two months ago the situation with Biden was VERY DIFFERENT than the situation now faced, with Kamala. Back then we could - and yay, did! - shift and pivot to adjust to the harsh realities that he was not capable of running again. We very likely would have lost if he had. But that was then, and this is now.
Anyway I think that I’m preaching to the converted here, so maybe I just misunderstood something that you said. Tbh, I don’t agree with your take on the OP - I think it really does show voting not for a 3rd party but voting for the other side b/c “bOtH sIdEs ArE tHe SaMe” (the title of the post), specifically wrt genocide. I think that b/c there are only 2 tracks shown… Also, the genocide being mentioned implicitly in the graphic (“but worse…”) shows how its focus is on short-term effects immediately after the election, not long-term ones about telling the Democratic party how the American populace would very much enjoy it if it would become more liberal if they would please and thank you very much.
Like, what “leeway” does Kamala have to say anything different than she already has, which she could shift to?
a significant enough chunk of her voter base credibly withholding a vote based on a desired policy change would force a shift toward that desired policy change
i’d say biden’s platform in 2020 was significantly more left-wing than clinton’s in 2016
But that was then, and this is now.
this is the same “it’s too late” or “it’s too unprecedented” or whatever you want to pick that was exactly the justification for biden being kept in as long as he was
I think it really does show voting not for a 3rd party but voting for the other side b/c “bOtH sIdEs ArE tHe SaMe” (the title of the post), specifically wrt genocide.
people the post targets aren’t voting red. they’re just not voting at all, or voting third party. it’s an argument to a position held by an insignificant fraction of the left-anti-harris crowd.
it doesn’t address the core issue they have. they’d say that continuing to vote for the least-bad party is the reason both parties are bad, and that at a certain point you have to attempt to force a more radical change.
Months ago was the time to make changes. Yeah, that’s what they said then too, except it was wrong then, as proven by the fact that the changes did happen.
Even if the words sound similar, now really is different than then. Voting has already begun - the fight to pick candidacies is long over and done. It is now long past time to pick a side.
If you want to vote 3rd party then go ahead - nobody is stopping you. Aside from all the news about some 3rd-party candidates receiving money from and having demonstrated ties to Russia (look it up if you haven’t heard), the Democrats do not seem to be taking such rhetoric as a credible “threat” though, for whatever reason. Probably bc they really are the best hope for the Palestinian people, as the latter recently confirmed by putting out a statement saying why they finally chose to endorse Kamala Harris’s campaign. You can ofc accuse the Dems of being very naive and disconnected from their voting base - that would be extremely difficult to argue against - and yet facts are facts.
See e.g. this article: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/17919598.
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You misread, try it again.
Sorry what do you think they meant then?
Believing in something and believing something exists or is a certain state are two very different things.
You can believe that this despotic duopoly exists in such a way that there are only two outcomes, without believing such a system will ever function.
I was going to make this, but put Palestine before the fork. And then put the person away from the lever refusing to participate when pulling the lever would move it to a track with nobody on it. Or pulling a different lever that does nothing (labeled Jill Stein).
Palestine is and will continue to get run over regardless who wins the presidency, so they aren’t exactly relevant to the choice. It’s not a real trolley problem because it’s not a trade for different people. It’s just “let the trolley run over Ukrainians, lgbtq+ people, minorities, and immigrants” or… don’t. And then refusing to touch the lever because it somehow makes you “love genocide” to have anything to do with the trolley, even if to mitigate the damage.
Please also put someone on the trolley with control over the brake and label them: Israeli leaders, military, and citizens. Since the trolley doesn’t actually need to go anywhere, regardless of whether the US track-switching money/arms are sent.
A Trump defeat could have been guarantee long ago by Biden by simply not sending Weapons and Ammo to Israel.
This tram has already been running over Palestinians and Lebanese for over a year and it’s Biden to keeps sending it down that line branch.
Both the framing of this as a false dichotomy and the claim that the power to switch the line is in the hands of common people - all of which are the core of Democrat Propaganda at the moment - have always been lies.
This is literally true but also irrelevant. I’m pissed that democrats are sacrificing our democracy for a ethnostate’s expansion and genocide.
But that doesn’t negate the fact that we have the power to keep literal fascists that are threatening violence if we don’t vote for them out of office. We have genocide on the one hand vs many genocides plus project 2025 plus an even worse Supreme Court plus a vengeful Trump with a new expansive presidential immunity on the other plus more Ukrainians dying plus Taiwan being handed over to China plus Trump selling our country to the highest bidder legally since the Supreme Court said that was a Ok, etc.
I picked genocide in Palestine (Harris will hopefully actually threaten Israel is in power) rather than the other choice. It sucks ass. But Trump getting power is just so much fucking worse.
We don’t know that. Remember that Lemmy is one hell of an echo chamber. Everyone doe6s think the same way as people on here.
Please do, I’d love to be able to just slap that image down whenever “bUt tHe gEnOcIdE!” comes up around here.
The anti-genocide group sees both main parties as driving the trolley. They would like them to just maybe hit the brake, noone needs to be run over. They see the lever as irrelevant because again just please stop the trolley.
Unfortunately, that argument doesn’t fit with one of the primary aspects of The Trolley Problem - it involves a runaway trolley. The obviously-preferred solution to “stop the trolley” isn’t an option, because stopping the trolley isn’t possible.
Edit: Can’t tell what about this comment deserved so many downvotes? I imagine we all agree that “stopping” the Trolley would be best, but the real life “Trolley” (ie the current genocide) is just as unstoppable (between now and election day) as the metaphorical one. It’s horrible, I agree, but protest-voting third party (or arguing to just “stop the Trolley”) isn’t a solution.
Okay, but it does fit the primary aspects of politics in america.
that argument doesn’t fit with one of the primary aspects of The Trolley Problem - it involves a runaway trolley. The obviously-preferred solution to “stop the trolley” isn’t an option, because stopping the trolley isn’t possible.
hold my blunt while I butcher this metaphor:
from Wikipedia
Reversing the points under a moving train will almost always derail the train.
Of course, but how can we “reverse the points under” the current election and derail the “genocide train”? Voting third party isn’t going to cut it.
I think a good representation would be to put the trolley already running over Palestine and then having to choose between keeping things as they are or adding the others + speeding up the train.
Or, changing the premise a little further, show the person as choosing between continuation, upgrade and using his own body to derail the trolley.
Please do make it! Just wait a day or so maybe?
Perfect, except there wouldn’t be anyone on the lower track. But definitely gets the point across.
Here you go:
I see .ml found this post. There are almost as many dumb comments as there are downvotes.
They be like “but if the top people are being ran over, it’ll radicalize them into communist ideology, and no way could a surveillance state, that is being promised by Trump and co. to to be even more extensive than the current one, combined with the promise of using the military against protestors, ever hinder the ability of a nation-wide revolution”.
I’m so glad that deteriorating material conditions radicalize people into left-wing ideologies, here I was worried that educating people was what radicalized them into left-wing ideologies. That’s why whenever I go home to Appalachia for a visit everyone there is wearing red. Th-that is the reason they’re so politically fond of red, r-right…?
Does reporting them work?
As far as I know, being dumb isn’t against the community’s rules, so no. That would just be bothering the mods for no reason.
I read something along the lines of “Report, do not engage” but maybe it’s more for obvious shills?
Thanks for the heads up though!
“Report, do not engage” is for trolls. These people are true believers, they just believe in something deeply immoral and senseless, because they think they won’t suffer the consequences of fascism.
Thanks for clearing that out, and yes, as I went to school and also grew up alongside the soviet fucking union I’m quite aware that these poor souls are quite delusional.
It’s quite interesting for me how they can hold those beliefs. They’re so engaged too.
Almost a shame they are not a bit more tame because now it’s hard or even impossible to engage in a constructive discussion with them.
Not engaging is still valid for idiots, not just trolls.
How are people supposed to react to a meme arguing that genocide is inevitable?
Not rejecting reality to throw a fit and ensure as many people are killed as possible instead would be a good start.
If you endorse a genocide because you’re scared it would otherwise happen to you, you’re still a Nazi. The Jews in the Nazi party in the 1940s were not victims, they were just Nazis.
If you endorse a genocide because you’re scared it would otherwise happen to you, you’re still a Nazi. The Jews in the Nazi party in the 1940s were not victims, they were just Nazis.
Don’t worry - the Terminally Online Leftists will change their tune from “It won’t change the election” to “If Palestine gets genocided by Israel, it’s only fair minorities in the US are genocided too”.
That last bit isn’t really a fair characterization. We don’t have to invent things people will say. There are already enough voices in this dialog.
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Wtf. I’ve never seen so many people annoyed that their fellows are protesting genocide. How do you take a situation like this and make it a fucking trolley meme.
I don’t think people are saying you shouldn’t protest the genocide. You should! But it’s stupid to not vote for Harris over it because letting Trump win doesn’t just throw women, LGBTQ people, etc. under the bus, it also makes the genocide of Palestinians even worse.
But it’s stupid to not vote for Harris
It’s stupid to vote for someone supporting a genocide
It’s stupid letting trump win.
Yes. Luckily life isn’t a meme and you are offered infinite possibilities so you can fight off trump without having to support criminals.
Lol
What I have seen with my eyes in the last 12 months is so horrifying that I cannot imagine how it could be worse.
Unfortunately I think Bibi has a better imagination than you
He’s been doing unlimited slaughter on gaza for 12 months it couldn’t possibly get worse than that theyre not gonna nuke Palestine the fallout would hit all of israel
“It couldn’t possibly get worse” so frequently comes right before it gets so, so much worse.
How
Maybe actual Holocaust style death camps, medical experimentation, elevating the death toll ten-fold. There are always ways things can get worse.
The government is spending billions in propaganda, half the people here are brainwashed and sockpuppets of their government
The Kremlin is spending even more, making people sockpuppets of them.
Edit: here they come!
Not true actually, the country that spend more money in war and in propaganda is USA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures
Russia cyberwar capabilities look weak compared to what the US has
The Biden/Harris admin is literally doing genocide to appease a foreign lobbying group (AIPAC)
Imagine you’re strapped to an operating table, incapacitated. There are two other people in the room strapped to tables with you.
In walk two psychopaths, let’s call them Al and Bob. They explain to you that they’ve decided to let the three of you choose your fate: Al wants to chop off your right hand, Bob wants to chop off all four of your limbs. They give you five minutes to decide, and then they’ll come back to take a vote, majority decides whether Al or Bob gets their way. If you refuse to vote they’ll flip a coin.
Immediately one of the other victims starts saying how terrible Al is and how horrible it is to chop off someone’s right hand. Non-stop protesting the inhumanity of Al, how important it is to deny Al the opportunity to take your right hand.
For whatever reason they seem oddly quiet on the fact that Bob also wants to take your right hand, and arm, and the left, and both legs. Whenever you try to interject with that fact, they accuse you of being pro-handchopping and how could you even suggest voting for Al the evil handchopper. And now the other victim seems to be taking this anti-Al rhetoric quite seriously.
Would you find that annoying?
imagine you’ve been abducted by 2 psychopaths
This is America
The original argument was “Both sides are evil/bad and we need to get rid of both.” These Democrats are trolling non-stop. Hopefully, they’ll be gone in a few weeks.
How do you take a situation like this and make it a fucking trolley meme.
You have to be a bigot who is happy to sacrifice others for your own comfort.
I mean…yeah…but also fuck the democrats. We shouldn’t be stuck in this position of genocide and fascism there and here or “just” genocide and fascism there. There are certainly degrees of being a piece of shit, but at this point, we are splitting hairs.
I don’t think “kill fewer people” is splitting hairs. I think it’s gross to leverage Palestine for political points but only against Democrats.
I think it is fucking reprehensible that the only two parties we have to choose from both support genocide. It doesn’t matter if they support “less genocide.” Supporting genocide makes them a piece of shit, regardless of how much genocide it is. You just find it better because it doesn’t affect you. The fact that I am being made complicit by the realities of the situation I’ve been forced into by the majority in my country (read: white colonizers) really pisses me off.
It only comes up with Harris because you don’t care as much about the genocide as much as you do about scoring political points. It’s horrible of you.
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You’re not going to jab me into thinking you’re contributing in good faith. You aren’t. There’s only a few reasons to dig at Harris and Democrats for something an entirely different country is doing.
None of them are good. None help those we do have the power to help. None deescalate.
Worse, you use the lives of those we can’t help as shelter to make your horrid stance against those we can help seem like it’s somehow a bad choice.
It’s awful. I can’t imagine how you got there, and I don’t want to.
In another country… that our tax dollars fund, we supply weapons to, and we implicitly protect with our military and political power. Ok, sure bud. I’m the one arguing in bad faith. 🤡
The day after Trump is on the TV telling people he’s ringing Netanyahu almost daily to convince him not to agree to Biden’s ceasefire proposals is a pretty shit day to be singing mud at the Democrats over Gaza.
One of the options is “unilaterally subject another country to our will”. I take it that’s what you want?
It only comes up with Harris because you don’t care as much about the genocide as much as you do about scoring political points. It’s horrible of you.
Lmfao, this level of cognitive dissonance seriously should be studied.
It doesn’t matter if they support “less genocide.”
It absolutely matters. In a binary choice, if you don’t support the side that supports less genocide, then you tacitly support some genocide.
The results of disregarding practicality for your principles can be ruinous. “The road to hell is paved on good intentions.”
Another illiterate. I’m voting for Harris, I’m just angry at the assholes who forced this choice.
No one is illiterate here. This is a text platform. You keep accusing people of being illiterate, yet didnt say you were voting for harris until you assumed someone would have read it somewhere yet the only mention was way down.
For the record i agree with your position. Its an absolute shame that there is no viable vote AGAINST genocide. Sure we could vote third party, but the third party votes are mostly sapping away from democrats, therefore unfortunately helping trump, who would surely do more to enable israel’s genocide than the dems, who hopefully push back to some degree.
Ive got friends who are refusing to vote in protest of the democrats not taking a hard stance against israel. While i agree with then in theory, in practice i think trump will be worse both domestically and internationally.
All that said, you might benefit from taking a smoke break and stop accusing everyone of being illiterate.
It is called reading comprehension, which is a component of literacy. I’ll quote myself from the comment before I started pointing out the rampant illiteracy in this thread.
“The fact that I am being made complicit by the realities of the situation I’ve been forced into by the majority in my country (read: white colonizers) really pisses me off.”
Another component of literacy is communicating clearly, which you failed to do. You then got upset that people didn’t understand your vague statement.
Paying taxes also makes you complicit in the arming of Israel. You never stated whether you were voting or not.
I’m just angry at the assholes who forced this choice.
Me too. Our voting system sucks. We need to get rid of the electoral college and have ranked choice or other system that makes 3rd parties viable.
The 2-party system means getting railroaded a lot.
The 2-party system means getting railroaded a lot.
And yet, libs would rather literally argue for some genocide, than for the abolition of the system that forces them in to that choice (which, when argued so passionately, doesn’t seem like being forced at all).
There are people beyond just you that still need to hear this, apparently.
A no-vote or third party vote didn’t help in the past dozens of elections. This problem is much deeper than who holds office, and what gets me is how it’s been politicized even though neither side has discussed it. It’s likely that Gaza has been used as a crisis tool to once again pit peon against peon while the ones in control laugh. And I’m not talking about the politicians, they are part of the tool, that’s why they aren’t talking about it.
Keep thinking a vote means this, and a non-vote means that. We’re doing exactly what they want us to do, bicker with each other instead of looking.
Bruh, why can’t any of you read. Goddamn.
You just find it better because it doesn’t affect you.
And what about Palestinians who support Kamala?
https://newrepublic.com/post/187537/kamala-harris-donald-trump-stunning-endorsement
What about Black people who support trump?
The only point you’re making with this comment is that you’re oblivious to how propaganda and indoctrination work.
or maybe the world is a complicated place where people can have different opinions without being brainwashed. grow the fuck up.
The fact that I am being made complicit
No. Complicity requires agency. Without a reasonable and viable choice to opt out, it would be unfair to hold you responsible. This situation is more like being a captive audience.
Without a reasonable and viable choice to opt out, it would be unfair to hold you responsible
And who the fuck is going to provide you with that choice? It’s one thing to say you aren’t responsible for how things are, it’s a completely different thing to claim that you have no responsibility for how things will be, depending on your actions, or lack thereof.
I don’t think “kill fewer people” is splitting hairs.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2024/08/16/biden-oil-drilling-production/ :
As he campaigned for president in 2020, Joe Biden made a bold promise at a New Hampshire town hall, adding repetition for emphasis: “No more drilling on federal lands. Period. Period. Period. Period.” […] The Biden administration has now outpaced the Trump administration in approving permits for drilling on public lands, and the United States is producing more oil than any country ever has. […] The country is expected to produce 13.2 million barrels of oil per day on average this year — millions of barrels more than Saudi Arabia or Russia.
“producing more oil than any country ever has” is making the biosphere unlivable, and causing a mass extinction which will kill more people.
If enough people vote for green parties, we can reverse anthropogenic climate change and stop the anthropocene extinction. If however we keep voting for the omnicidal lesser evil, then we’re voting for omnicidal evil, and complicit in killing more people.
“splitting hairs” could mean the difference between up to a couple million people dying, and potentially tens of millions of people or more dying. That’s not splitting hairs at that point. That’s not “po-tay-toe/po-tah-toe” anymore. Anyone arguing otherwise is either brainwashed or is arguing in bad faith.
Imagine thinking that there’s no difference between one genocide and several, simultaneous genocides.
Bad faith? It is bad faith to find any genocide “acceptable,” while simultaneously becoming angry at anyone pointing out that genocide is unacceptable. Seriously, what the actual fuck? This is white liberalism in its most concentrated lethal form. Ironically, it’ll eventually lead to the genocides you don’t find acceptable. If it wasn’t for this shit mentality, we wouldn’t be here.
Damn, you’ve been showing off a lot of privilege, my dude. I don’t usually like invoking that concept, but you’re dripping all over the floor. Maybe it’s time for you to stop and think about the fact that it easy to paint everyone with a broad brush and say, “it’s okay if the body count goes up by a few million, I’ll just wait until a better candidate comes along” when you’re not the one on the firing line.
It’s easy to say that when you’re not the one who may get bounced from country to country as you try to seek refuge from a genocidal dictator.
It’s easy to say that when you’re not the one who’s going to have to rip their entire life apart just to survive.
It’s easy to say that when you’re not the one who’s family is going to be split up as a result.
Like, feel free to criticize the Democrats as much as you want, I hate them too. But I don’t have the privilege to just sit around and wait for Mr(s) Perfect to arrive. I may have a matter of months, if not weeks before I have to flee the country.
So fuck you and your “both sides” bullshit. It takes some serious privilege, or at the very least, the mindset of a bucket of crabs to say something like that.
I’m trans and so fucking sick of people here using my existence as an excuse to support/ignore genocide. My rights are not more important than those of Palestinians and anyone saying that they support me while killing brown muslim people abroad will not get my support. The interesting part is that Harris won’t even plainly say she supports trans peoples rights, she has to dance around it and say it in the most vague meaningless terms. You know that trans people are the next in line to be thrown in front of the bus by the dems.
I’m trans. I live in Texas. What do you want me to say?
Nothing, just don’t assume that everyone refusing to vote for a genocide supporter is privileged and don’t speak for me.
I stopped reading that screed after you accused me of privilege. Again, another lemmy illiterate. I am voting for Harris. I’m angry at those with privilege who’ve made this the only choice I have.
Yeah? But all you said was “fuck the democrats”. There are enough people on here who say “fuck the democrats” but mean “vote for someone else” that you can’t leave that ambiguity.
I didn’t, you just can’t read well.
Alright, since you’re confused, let me try to break this down for you.
Here’s your original message:
I mean…yeah…but also fuck the democrats. We shouldn’t be stuck in this position of genocide and fascism there and here or “just” genocide and fascism there. There are certainly degrees of being a piece of shit, but at this point, we are splitting hairs.
Okay, so
I mean…yeah…
Okay, this could mean two things: you agree, or you are acknowledging someone’s position
but
Alright, so, now we know that if you agree, then you have a disagreement on how it’s presented. Alternatively, you have acknowledged their position and are disagreeing with it.
also
Again, this doesn’t tell me whether or not you agree, this just says you have something to say in addition to a prior statement (“I mean…yeah…but”). It still doesn’t indicate whether or not you actually agree or if you’re just acknowledging their position.
fuck the democrats.
Alright, so here’s an actual position. Not unreasonable imo; however, it is a very hostile statement.
We shouldn’t be stuck in this position of genocide and fascism there and here or “just” genocide and fascism there.
I agree with this too, absolutely a reasonable position to take. However, you’ve yet to clarify if you actually agree with OP, or if you’re taking an opposing side. If you think that it should be obvious by this point, you’re right.
In a sane environment this statement shouldn’t be ambiguous.
In a sane environment someone would read this and think that you’re describing the Dems (making an assumption here) as being the lesser of two evils.
However, this statement also indicates disapproval of the Democrats, which, again, is a reasonable position to take in a sane world. However, there are enough people who say this as a way to put people back on the fence (or even get them to vote for a different party) that I still can’t rule anything out at this point.
There are certainly degrees of being a piece of shit, but at this point, we are splitting hairs.
Now you’re reducing the idea of Palestinians being genocided vs Palestinians, LGBT, PoC, women seeking abortions, etc being genocided to “po-tay-toe/po-tah-toe”. That’s what splitting hairs usually refers to. It’s needlessly debating something considered trivial or mundane. I think that is what is getting you into trouble.
Implying that the difference between one group and many groups being subjected to genocide is not a trivial thing, and it casts doubt on the rest of your statement. Personally it makes me think you’re trying to argue for voting 3rd party during this election.
So, I can see how you thought your statement was clear, but unfortunately there are enough bad actors on Lemmy that it wasn’t as clear as you thought it was.
Edit: if you want to clarify your position, you could say something like, “fuck the Dems, I hate that Harris is our only option” or “I hate that I feel like I have to vote for Harris”. This way you have clarified that you intend to vote for Harris, or that you agree that Harris is better than Trump, while also voicing your distaste for the Democrats.
So, what’s your plan for the election? Not voting, sitting in a corner yelling “it’s unacceptable!!!”?
Or voting the lesser of two evils and working to better the system?
The democratic parties of 1920s Germany also were full of racists, antisemites and union busters, but not voting or worse voting for the NSDAP only achieved one thing - the Nazis power grab.
So what’s your plan?
Why are all of you so fucking illiterate? I am voting for Harris. I’m angry my choice is ANY genocide at all.
If you are voting for Harris then you must agree that both sides are indeed not “the same” which is the entire point of this post.
Boost for lemmy doesn’t show profile pics and usernames all look the same so I might have overlooked where you said that. Also your comment I replied to reads like that wasn’t the case. I apologize for the mix up, but still feel your hostility is unwarranted and will now disengage.
i swallowed my self-respect and did so for hillary and biden. never again. noway i am voting for these child butchers. in next elections they will just shuffle the tracks and will be again harassing us for “lesser evil”.
i will take the downvotes, they can all go to hell. ah well genocide enablers will go there anyway.
Youre stuck in this position and it sure as shit isnt the fault of “democrats”.
Have them change the voting system then, because not voting/voting 3rd party isn’t going to get you there either, and will make it far worse. Having this attitude in 2016 already made it far worse.
Youre also going to have to come to the reality that genocide is an American tradition, in the very foundation of its economy. That’s why Americans still have military weapon reveals lmao, and y’all love it
or as the great prophet George Carlin, may peace be upon him, said “Garbage in, Garbage out”
anyone still participating in this broken system believes genocide is an acceptable choice. The only responsible choice is to burn it all to the ground and start again.
Sweet plan, where do we meet up for the “burn it to the ground” option?
And while we are planning, do you think you could consider voting for Kamala, you know, so more of our potential comrades aren’t locked up? Best to shore up our numbers right? Sic semper tyrannis!
“After Hitler, Our Turn”
People who refuse to participate in the democratic process and then complain that it doesn’t work for them are hilarious.
Nice of you to sacrifice all the lives that it will cost to “burn it all down”. The corpses of everyone who isn’t a straight white male will thank you
We’re not people to them, just little tokens to make them feel good about themselves.
what is your plan when it’s all burned down and now you have to fight MAGA for control of the country?
The only responsible choice is to burn it all to the ground and start again.
Huh, funny. Last i heard to achieve this you want to insert someone that have the exact believe that will change the system, and there’s two way to do this: one is to vote in a democratic process, slowly and surely move toward that future one vote at the time; and two is to cause a civil war. People that’s jaded but comfortable in their situation usually want to pick the latter, which mean killing people that’s not on your side and sending young people to die for your cause. Sounds familiar? That’s because it’s what Trump tried last time. Does that sounds responsible to you?
I doubt that’s happening, disparate groups acting in an unconcerted manner aren’t likely to achieve much. They already kill us sleeping in our beds.
We have some very bad people; we have some sick people, radical-left lunatics. And it should be very easily handled, if necessary, by National Guard, or if really necessary, by the military, because they can’t let that happen.
- Donald Trump
One thing I’ve learned this election cycle is how few people have any knowledge of utilitarianism. Genocide is better than genocide+1. Not acting is a moral choice, and frequently a cowardly one.
Honestly, I wonder how much of our disagreements do ultimately come down to moral philosophy. I see a lot of people making this comparison and I’d be happy to put aside the present political situation and step back to discuss a higher level of disagreement.
I am a consequentialist, and I would agree, in principle, that the correct decision in the trolley problem is to pull the lever. But that should always come with an extreme amount of disclaimers. There are no shortage of people throughout history who have made justifications for their actions on the basis of “the ends justify the means,” but often, they turned out to be wrong. To use an example, torture under the Bush administration was claimed to be justified on the basis of getting useful intelligence in order to save lives. But no such intelligence was ever extracted. Really, it was more motivated by revenge, or a desire to be the sort of cool antihero who does the stuff nobody else will that needs to be done, but “the ends justify the means” served as a rationalization. Another example like that (though perhaps more controversial) is the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
The problem with applying the trolley problem to real life is that we are mere human beings of flesh and blood. We have a whole host of cognitive biases that mislead us even when we have the best of intentions. If we give our minds a way to justify things that we know are bad, it gives it an out that allows us to rationalize the irrational and justify the unjustifiable.
There are two practices that are necessary to apply in order to counteract these biases. First, it is necessary to adopt a set of strong moral guidelines based on past experience and historical evidence. Second, it is necessary to regularly practice some form of introspection or meditation in order to better understand where your thoughts and feelings arise from, and how they flow through your mind. Said guidelines do not have to be rigorously adhered to 100% of the time, but they should be respected, and only deviated from after clear, careful consideration, understanding why the guideline exists and why deviation from them is almost always bad.
“Base” consequentialism, where you recognize that pulling the lever in the trolley problem is the correct decision, but simply accept that as a guiding principle, is a terrible moral philosophy, worse than deontology and possibly worse than having completely unexamined moral views. Some of the worst atrocities in history are the result of that sort of “ends justify the means” approach, detached from a set of moral guidelines and detached from humility and self-reflection. I would even say, speaking as a communist, that many of the bad things communists have done in history are a result of that kind of mentality. Following moral rules blindly is preferable to breaking moral rules without first doing the necessary work to be trusted with breaking them.
There’s plenty more I could say on the topic but people always complain about my long posts so I’d better cut myself off there.
Just reply to yourself with additional information. People like me can read through them all, and everyone else can skip them.
I found your post useful myself.
Immigrants used to be on top rail, but after four years, they have been placed on both rails, just like the Palestinians. There is no guarantee that the groups placed on the top rail will not be shifted to the bottom rail as well in four years.
Voting for Democrats is always advertised as the lesser of two evils, but it sure seems like the lesser evil is just trying to kill the same groups the greater evil. If they want people to vote for them, the Democrats should start working to save and prevent people from being tied to trolley tracks.
Or at least lie about it.
Plus we have Democrat-run cities implementing AI to spot homeless people, so add that to both rails as well
“Democrat-run cities”
Ya’ll just can’t help yourselves and I love it.
It’s almost as if they have a list of talking points and are told how to phrase simple things to make them further their agenda…
You mean like memes such as this one that deliberately leave out all sorts of context and misrepresent a political issue by oversimplifying it?
Didn’t Kamala already refuse to protect Trans rights? The Dems will put everyone on the tracks if it gets them votes/donations
Derail the train don’t accept a false choice not to mention democrats also are terrible on policing and immigration for example so more should also be on the democrats track.
Either the Dem or Rep nominee will become president. It’s going to happen. There’s no “derailing the train”.
You can doubt me now. You’ll see soon enough.
No, really. Q says there’s a super special session of the real Congress that happens on February 7th with jfk jr presiding to choose the real president, but it only happens if you don’t vote. Trust me, bro.
Either the Dem or Rep nominee will become president. It’s going to happen. There’s no “derailing the train”.
The red and blue party didn’t create the world. All it takes to derail a train is one person.
The name of the person? Albert Einstein!
Then why aren’t you derailing the rain?? You’re a horrible person!
The point is nobody is saved by electoral politics instead do actual organizing and actions.
There’s no “derailing the train”.
from Wikipedia
Reversing the points under a moving train will almost always derail the train.
yes we need to derail the metaphorical train
Removed by mod
And there you have it, support for genocide = civil, mods allow. Calling people out on supporting genocide = not civil, mods remove.
Typical fucking libs, making fascists proud.
Oh well, another community and a bunch of mods to block… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Bye, Felicia.
These are all sort of parody to begin with but the purpose of the trolley dilemma isn’t about the results of the lever switch, it’s about approaching complicity and participation in a system that creates this kind of immoral choice.
But if you have a choice between lots of violence and less violence isn’t it immoral not to try and at least minimize the violence that you have to no power to stop?
It depends if you have to participate in the violence to minimize it.
For example, take a public shooter who disabled a police responder. Does a nearby citizen have an obligation to seize the cops gun and attempt to stop the shooter? Should they be shamed if they do nothing and hide? Is that choosing to allow violence or choosing not to be a part in it?
Natural disasters happen, accidents happen, and people regularly stop and help. I would be surprised if someone didnt in those situations.
There’s the additional risk of being shot in your example, so I’d reckon that less people would try to take the gun in this case compared to the trolley problem.
Theres also risk that you would get hurt helping in the other examples I gave.
Also a random by stander would have no idea what flipping a switch would do, it could derail the train and kill more than are on either track.
The situation in the trolley problem isnt realistic, and it definitely isnt simple or settled. Its an interesting thought experiment though.
The trolley problem implies that the bystander knows what flipping the switch would do though? Same as the US election, since I doubt that Democrats would start actively oppressing trans people or women (unless they start compromising on issues).
(unless they start compromising on issues).
Something Democratic politicians are completely unknown to do.
Right.
Right?
Right?!
I mean that’s why I referred to this as a parody: the point is with the trolley dilemma is that you’re being forced to participate in an immoral choice (the lever), not just that the lever applies or absolves the user from a moral liability.
A major part of the exercise is that the choice seems simple to flip the switch as plain harm reduction, but that people change their calculus the moment the single victim has a personal connection: (it is their parent, spouse, child being killed instead of the other 5 strangers.)
The forced immoral act (killing) ceases to be the moral quandry and instead harm reduction is the level of personal connection and culpability that people begin to weigh.
Since these memes tend to portray the trolley effectively running down both tracks with one outcome, the whole premise is kind of defeated.
but the purpose of the trolley dilemma isn’t about the results of the lever switch, it’s about approaching complicity and participation in a system that creates this kind of immoral choice.
…
(but worse)
This amounts to genocide denial.
(but worse)
This amounts to genocide denial.
This amounts to genocide denial.
It’s weird how easy it is to say something stupid.
As you can see I have drawn stink lines above your opinion therefore defeating you qed
No it doesn’t. It implies that the level and rate of genocide would be even worse than it is now.
Trump loves money. One of the best ways best way for him to get more money once in power is increasing our military spending on Israel aid, that’s the “but worse” part. In what world do you think he’d do the inverse of maintaining his power? There’s a reason the military industrial complex wants him in power
You live in a completely sealed off palace in your own mind. Democrats have been tripping over themselves to send repeated aid packages. Israel is using ordinance faster than we can make it. You shouldn’t feel so comfortable just saying whatever the fuck makes sense to you when you’re trying to talk about reality. You should look at it.
The democrats are committing a genocide. “But worse” implies they aren’t already doing the worst crime against humanity that exists in our imagination. It is genocide denial.
Even in genocide there is a way to make it worse, see hitlers concentration camps
Do you hear yourself? How about refugee camps that get fire bombed, is that close enough?
There isnt a way for the republicans to escalate from where its at. The democrats are openly saying that they think this is a good opportunity to change the middle east in the west favor, yet again.
The war mongering is destroying the democrat party. Its turned the race into should we kill non americans or americans for our wealth? How about we stop killing people and take a step back a bit huh?
There is always a way to escalate from the current point. For example they could ramp up the military production even more to the point that they are allowing israel to basically invade any country they choose.
They could also help strategically collect everyone they deem as " Hamas" and store them in camps to gas them in masses. They aren’t even close to holocaust level genocide yet.
This also ignores what would happen to minority groups inside of the us which could be executed for being trans etc. see laws passed in some states for “punishing predators” which often include trans people, this could very well escalate to giving the death sentence to minority groups.
Could escalate to death penalty doesnt compare much to thousands of dead children using munitions created in American factories.
Maybe kamala should just take an anti-war stance and allow those who care about this to vote for her. Thats far easier than convincing thousands of people not to care about their dead family members.
The republicans have announced that they will be doing a genocide against the minorities in the US in the project 2025 plan. I think one genocide is already enough, although they should definitely stop sending munitions for the genocide ongoing in israel. I am not willing to throw more people under the bus just to show one party that I don’t support what they are doing. There is a time and place for that kind of criticism but it is not closely before an upcoming election which decides if the US would become a country led by a dictator
If genocide is as bad as it gets, and no escalation is possible, then by your own logic there’s nothing we can do about Palestine. It’s already genocide, which cannot be surpassed, so it’s already too late.
What’s the difference between the 40,000 people already killed and the 2,000,000 people living in Gaza? Numbers don’t matter, only buzzwords.
Of course, that’s complete bullshit, but so is your logic here.
I posited that Trump will continue and increase that aid because it benefits him. You didn’t address that claim at all, but instead spoke of the existing aid to Israel. I didn’t say that would stop. You never addressed my original point. Insult me all you like, it doesn’t change the fact that Trump will do whatever the fuck it takes to maintain and increase his power, and as you said “Israel is using ordinance faster than we can make it” but we can certainly make it faster, and there’s more money and power to be had in the further production of it, especially when your first goal is to remove any sort of check or balance in place when it comes to where taxpayer money goes
I posited that Trump will continue and increase that aid because it benefits him. You didn’t address that claim at all
I called you stupid and said that you just say shit off the top of your head. That was your response. Trump’s money is in real estate, you unserious clown.
Yes, according to the meme both sides are murderers. Directly supporting criminals by endorsing them or voting them makes you complicit in their crime.
Bruh you literally argued the opposite in your recent comments about Turkey and India.
It’s always different when you do it yourself…
See abortions and ultra conservative Christians.
There are many idiots here acting in bad faith. When someone claim something before jumping to conclusion you probably want to double check
“So am i allowed to insult all Turks in general because their president is a fascist?”
This is the only post about “turkey” i made recently.
How are the two thing supposed to be related? If you knowingly support and vote a criminal you are complicit in the crime. If you happen to be born in a country ruled by a criminal and someone assume you are bad because of your nationality that’s equal to racism.
Hey, what do you think about the Tianmen square incident? And what do you think about the Uyghur situation?
How are these things related to anything that is being said in this thread? Chinese government is a rigged authoritarian regime as much corrupted as the american or russian government. China, America and Russia are all each fueling a genocide at the current time. I believe genocides are a crime against humanity and anyone involved in one should be convicted. You hate china so much that you brought it up randomly in this thread, i have a question for you too: are you aware that most items are produced in china and make it to your country just fine because pretty much every government in the world is in billionares business partnerships with them?
Lol dodged those questions like a champ.
Voting is now directly supporting.
Must be nice and simple to live in such a polarised world.
