That’s a lot of ecstasy.
It’s gonna be a fun night followed by a hard, sleepy day
Looks more like a few hours of cramping body and soul followed by 3 days of emotional hangover
Ehhhhh so this was in 2000. Your standard ecstasy pill (we’re assuming they’re not pipers; these don’t look shiny and they’re not shaped or outpressed) have between 70mg MDMA and 120mg (if they’re absolute fire.)
This would be about 400mg of MDMA total. While that is quite a lot, you’re not going to have a horrible time—I just wouldn’t do it in public because you WILL be a chattering mess. It’ll still feel amazing, though.
Source: oldhead, last time I rolled it was a total of about 450mg but spread out over hours and I was absolutely not in public, just writing naked with my partner)
I was gonna add “these days” but didn’t
Oh GOD I fully agree in that case. Rolls nowadays have up to 300-400mg in a single pill (sounds like you already know that, but I’m just saying this for context in case another reader doesn’t)
That’d be like eating a gram or more of Molly at once, and THAT is for sure not safe and not a good time.
Drained
She gonna need some water
Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t believe ecstacy is actually dehydrating. Dancing at a rave for hours on end without drinking anything is though.
Just like SSRI’s, Ecstasy does interfere with your hypothalamus and temperature regulation. So, small energy expenditures creat oversized responses.
You would still sweat heavily doing more than lying down with a fan blowing on you.
Yeah, another part of the problem is that you cannot tell that you are hyperthermic and or dehydrated.
Thats how you get the people that dance all night and then just die, or go comatose or pass out.
Your body stops telling you wow, i am way too hot and wow, i really need water.
Sort of like that rare condition where you literally cannot feel pain, and children with it will break their fingers because it feels weird.
Eh, not double stacked so it’s ok.
AKSHULLY that wasn’t a thing in the 2000s, just marketing hype. Rolls back then had between 70 and 120mg of MDMA, and 120 is a basal amount you want to take if you fully want to get rolling.
Now it’s TOTALLY a thing, tons of rolls have 300-400mg in a single pill now. It’s insanity.
Worse than that, that one website dance something that would test pills found that a huge percentage of the “ecstasy” people took didn’t contain MDMA. A surprising amount didn’t even contain illegal drugs. Just over the counter speed.
Curious. When I last looked (quite a while ago) most of the tested pills were MDMA, with many containing caffeine as well. I guess it varies a lot over time.
Dancesafe.org was it! I’m going back over 20 years to the late 90’s early 2000’s. I can’t comment on the state of ecstasy today, I haven’t rolled in over 20 years.
Yah, there were TONS of pipers going around (BZP/TFMPP) when that was legal to buy. I’ve never had one because I could instantly tell when a pill was a piper (shiny, hard, outpress, or shaped.) I could also tell by the taste if I licked it. Headache city apparently.
Damn that is insane. My skin would slink off if I did 300+
Recently did 400-450 each with my partner in a night but over the course of a couple hours… definitely not something to do in public hahaha. We were naked, quivering piles of hedonism, writhing in bed for hours in absolute insane, well, ecstasy. It’s aptly named, that’s for sure.
For once, got incredible sleep afterwards and felt awesome the next day! Thank you, sleep.
This is how the girl from that Mitsubishi eclipse car commercial started her night
Aww damn, I definitely thought it was real and in some video game magazine
Rockstar used to go pretty hard.
This game, appropriately, is where I learned there was such a thing as uppers and downers.
It’s likely they were trying to get the news riled up so they could cause a moral outrage that would attract attention to the game.
All right I’ll ask the dumb question here, what am I looking at? From what I can tell they are tiny empty bags
Those type of bags are usually used to hold illicit substances, and typically only bought by small-time drug dealers.
And board game players!
And electronics hobbyists!
And toenail collectors!
And my sword!
board game baggies usually have a tiny hole in them, to let the air out when you’re packing the game away. not so great if you’re muleing some molly to your weekly game of Wingspan
awww youve never bought street powders thats nice
The Bags that spare buttons come in, or how I used to get all my drugs.
When the marketing agency jumps the shark
I miss that era. Companies didn’t mind a bit of edginess and weren’t afraid to market to adults. The console culture itself also isn’t what it used to be.
These days, gaming consoles all need to be safe enough for five year olds to play on them. And it’s caused everything to be just too bland and safe, both in marketing and the console itself. Can’t really have things like Xbox 360 Uno with the live camera feed and no moderation. Or the wholly uncensored COD lobbies.
I like the part between your two paragraphs. The early gaming era was really shitty when it came to diversity and… It’s not even representation, it’s not having to play sluts or princesses or whatever.
The now-era is all AAA all-the-same sanitised stuff, nothing to do with lack of edginess. Just corporate safety in mainstream appeal. Currently, indie games are where the experiments and interesting ideas happen.
I’m certainly not going to say you’re wrong on that first part. I’ve been online since 1996. At that time, the internet was the domain of white, heterosexual, nerdy, generally well educated guys. And me being a white, heterosexual, nerdy, well educated guy… well… going online felt like coming home. Those were my people. I still really miss those days.
But I also know that the experience of someone not like me would’ve been wildly different. I learned a bajillion slurs on COD lobbies after all. It’s a good thing that more people now feel welcome online, as it led to platform growth and functionality that we otherwise wouldn’t have had if it was just ‘my kind of people’.
The current safe, sanitised, gentrified gaming sphere also has benefits: COD lobbies these days are very pleasant by comparison. You even have to sign a code of conduct to get on multiplayer. It feels more welcoming, less hostile. Of course, companies certainly have been financially incentivized to attract as wide an audience as possible. For example, the very first GTA game sold about 6 million copies. GTA V has sold 200 million. And with ever-increasing development budgets, you can’t afford to cater to a niche, you want to cast as wide a net as possible to recoup those costs.
“the internet was the domain of white, heterosexual, nerdy, generally well educated guys. And me being a white, heterosexual, nerdy, well educated guy… well… going online felt like coming home. Those were my people”
Thank you for putting it so clearly. Yes, it is completely valid to long for a time where the own niche was the in-group. As someone who’s been on the web from early on but a woman, it wasn’t really “my people”. It was never a safe space for me, but I totally understand where you are coming from. It’s great to be on the side of the “default”.
The only spaces I genuinely miss are phpbb forums. I honestly believe they are better than reddit, or the fediverse for that matter. Smaller interest groups have a self selection mechanism and better moderation. I think they could still foster a great environment today that would welcome nerdy educated people on a shared interest without specifically speaking to just one type of educated nerds.
I miss forums as well, and I’m actually moving back to them. Back in the early 2000’s, I visited like a dozen forums each day. I was a member of like three watch forums, a camera forum, a Star Trek forum, some gaming forums and others. Just ‘doing the rounds’ kept you busy for a while. People also were insanely knowledgeable on those niche forums, and they all had their own specific culture and flavor to them.
Places like a niche subreddit are… OK at best. They are convenient and easy to visit, but don’t tend to have the level of knowledge and discourse that I generally enjoy. You also run the risk of your sub getting ruined by people who are into the wrong aspects of your particular hobby. For example, on a watch FORUM, the discussions are about design, mechanical features, history, photography, how to repair, etc. etc. On the subreddit, a lot of posts tended to be drive-by posters who ‘found a watch and wanted to know what it’s worth’. or ‘is this fake’. The subreddit didn’t curb that, so eventually I and many others just stopped going there. It was basically too easy for people to post there just because, well, they could. Whereas on an actual watch forum, you can do a bit stricter moderation and the registration requirement weeds out low effort posting.
Some consider that ‘gatekeeping’, but I see it as a valid way of protecting one’s chosen community.
It was basically too easy for people to post there just because, well, they could.
I expect the difference you’re describing was partly due to moderation (and lack thereof), but also partly due to the barrier to entry imposed by the forum signup process.
Unfortunately, the signup barrier cuts both ways: Despite loving high-quality discussion forums, I seldom bother participating in them these days, mainly because jumping through signup/captcha/email-validation hoops and then having to maintain yet another set of credentials for yet another site, forever, became too much hassle once I had more than a couple dozen. (I have hundreds, so I’m very reluctant to add to the pile.)
OpenID managed to solve a good deal of that hassle, but it’s mostly forgotten these days. I think well-moderated federated services have the potential to solve it completely, though. Here’s hoping.
Bro here in Brazil, we have slurs in the millions since gaming took of in the 90s
The number reaches the Brazillions
The number reaches the Brazillions
hahaha ;D
I used to play Rune Quake with a guy on MPlayer named ‘svfox’ and he was from Brazil - this was 96/97. I miss him sometimes; we managed to lock down games of Rune Quake and CTF we played so well together.
I don’t think I’ve met any Brazilians back in those days; (online) gaming is really expensive there from what I heard, right?
One fun thing in the old COD lobbies was always to teach others slurs and general cursing in your language. I learned how to curse folks out in like 50 languages. Each country also has its own unique style of cursing. We Dutch really like to incorporate diseases for example.
A lot were in tibia, RO, Mu, AOE and other classics like Ultima, xeminos and lineage
Wild times but no voice chat so that was nice 👍
Oh yeah, I was so bewildered when I read “kanker, ga lopen!” for the first time!
Classic perkele dyas
Yeah, gaming (and tech in general) going mainstream brought with it both the good and the bad. More diversity, but also more corporate consolidation.
It’s the eternal pendulum swinging between slut and saint, whore and Madonna. AAA games are afraid of sexuality, and one can see why when looking back on how Lara Croft was portrayed in magazines. We need games that, when appropriate, acknowledge sexuality in a way that reflects its role in people’s lives.
didnt bladurs gate 3 just come out and has sex scenes?
deleted by creator
this isn’t marketing to adults. it’s marketing to teenage boys.
They were pretty sexist tho.
Honestly, it puts me off completely. I’m a woman and this is what gaming used to be: women are sluts. The ad isn’t even trying to be clever or anything. Like wtf is this this trying to say?
The ad is saying PlayStation is as good as drugs? I’m assuming that the little tabs are supposed to be exctacy or something.
Ecstasy.
Exactly
eccentric
Eggcelent
sexelent
Exstacltsy
And why is it a “trashy hot” woman despite the target audience being 99% young men at the time? This is what I mean. The ad speaks to a target audience that is not on the poster.
Oh, she’s trashy? Why? Please don’t tell us you did not get whooshed by the ad now.
Oh, she’s trashy? Why? Please don’t tell us you did not get whooshed by the ad now.
The ad has combined the image of putting tablets on a womans tongue, while also having her in a pose with tongue out that is also used to imply the desire to perform oral sex. This is highlighted by the fact she is looking up, with the camera focused on her face.
That said, I’m guessing here, but I’m sure as hell not going to tell a woman she’s not allowed to be offended by sexualization of another woman to sell Playstations.
her in a pose with tongue out
Yeah, so you can see the logos forming the pattern of the face buttons on the pills.
This is highlighted by the fact she is looking up, with the camera focused on her face.
becausw she’s getting high, this is really common “being high” imagery. That’s even why it looks slightly sexual: orgasms are just a different kind of high.
but I’m sure as hell not going to tell a woman she’s not allowed to be offended by sexualization of another woman to sell Playstations.
Nobody said she can’t be, they just pointed out her reasoning doesn’t really hold much water, because it doesn’t. People can feel however they want about something, none of us can stop them.
her in a pose with tongue outYeah, so you can see the logos forming the pattern of the face buttons on the pills.
Are you seriously implying this is the only pose you could use to show that off?
Nobody said she can’t be, they just pointed out her reasoning doesn’t really hold much water, because it doesn’t.
Ah, ok, I understand now.
Are you seriously implying this is the only pose you could use to show that off?
No, don’t put words in other people’s mouths. Just because you read it as sexual does not mean that was the intention
Mansplain
Nobody’s been condescending but you, motherfucker.
When i saw this ad, all i thought was ecstasy, rave and playstation. Not “women are sluts” or anything like it. If i didn’t get the reference, i probably would think the same about the ad as her. I don’t think she got the reference, not after her initial comment.
Tongue out with ecstasy on is something you would see at raves. The eyes up is odd i give you that, that’s made to look submissive, and sure there are sexual connotations, advertisers are clever.
But raves were also not some sterile asexual gatherings either. I don’t know.
Tongue out with ecstasy on is something you would see at raves. The eyes up is odd i give you that, that’s made to look submissive, and sure there are sexual connotations, advertisers are clever.
Yeah exactly, but also come on everyone, ecstasy is a drug that tends to make you want to fuck. So I think the ad -> sluttiness could be from, and I’m guessing here, that she’s in a submissive pose that just so happens to be identical to a sexual one, taking a drug that makes one want to fuck, and that’s her ‘role’ in this ad.
That said, you’ll notice not a single person asking the woman who posted why she saw it that way, they just jumped to tell her she’s wrong.
So @stufkes@lemmy.world , on behalf of men on lemmy, I’m sorry you got this reaction. I really hope at least one person in this thread goes “Wait… I don’t see it as problematic, but someone else does. Maybe I should understand why?”
I should not have replied to her but kept to myself.
I don’t care about the ad, never was a gamer, just stumbled in here via all.
Ayyyooo you don’t hafta be a slut to love MDMA
Doesn’t hurt though.
“Playstation is a drug”
It’s edgy marketing. You’re not wrong it’s also clearly sexualizing her, but they’re pushing a console like a party drug.
On the one hand, it’s a very dated ad, on the other I really wish marketing companies would do weird shit like this more. Just maybe with a bit less sex appeal?
There’s nothing wrong with sex appeal. Removing sex appeal, drugs, whatever else is how you get boring corpo bullshit ads instead of edgy corpo bullshit ads.
Listen I’m not going to respond to a woman saying an ad is gross and off putting by telling her to lighten up.
Why not? A woman can’t have a idiotic opinion? That’s sexist!
They absolutely can. This just isn’t really one of them. Ads in the 90s all treated women as sex objects to be “played”. And this ad isnt wild in that regard, but you’re kidding yourself if you think they didn’t choose that angle and lighting deliberately.
That’s why I responded to you and not her 😅
Nah this is still corpo bullshit. It’s also one of the tamer specimens of that era. The only difference is, the corpos in charge of advertising at that time were all sentient hardons who heard stories about how drugs are and peaked at 14. None of them lived in the real world and they just churned out knee-jerk sexist bullshit because they wanted to appeal to boys going through puberty and men that never left that headspace.
<rant> A lot of the ads from that era are uncomfortable. Hell, a lot of the games were. It was rare to see a female character that wasn’t ditzy and helpless, a thinly-veiled copy of the writer’s mom, or exactly like a dude but hot. Those were the options. I’m not saying I needed every game to be a work of great literature with complex and tormented characters and copious backstory; I just wanted female characters in games that didn’t like someone doing a ventriloquism act with their fleshlight.
I ended up chasing gameplay and trying to ignore how fucking awkward and immature most of the shooters were in that era and I don’t think I was alone. I think a lot of gamers grew up and drove the market in a slightly more mature direction. Some people blame woke bullshit, but for me it was just being utterly sick of how fucking juvenile everything was and voting with my money. There’s still a vocal minority out there that wants the good old days back, but I’d stop playing if the industry went back to exclusively 3xtr33m l33t 4ct10n d00d bullshit.
Sidenote: I played the demo for some Cliffy B game a decade ago on my XBox and hard-quit and deleted when the guy on my comms told me to “fire a rocket directly up the bad guy’s poop chute.” I was in my 30s and Cliff was probably pushing 40 at the time. What the hell? Are we nine years old again? Then again, he was the guy that threw his cat into his scanner and posted a picture of it every day until the internet told him to stop. Ugh. Let’s never go back there. </rant>
None of them lived in the real world and they just churned out knee-jerk sexist bullshit because they wanted to appeal to boys going through puberty and men that never left that headspace.
It really took the industry a long time to get out of that, too. It was all through the early 2000’s, and people forget, also had wonderful shit like:
this, which should have taken that franchise down. People just gloss over it now like ‘oh yeah, haha, people were just like that back in… 2009!? Oh, shit, uh…’
(EDIT: Feel free to explain your downvote, you miss ads like this?)
Not the downvoter, but i appereciate how the punchline of the ad wasn’t explicitly spelled out, despite the punchline being “slur funny.”
I feel like we tolerated the assholes of the time because, immature though they were, they were the life of the party, which was “the point” of gaming for a demographic, to be the exact opposite of work in every way.
We need high-energy, charismatic, boundary pushing people if we want games that are fresh and innovative. Unfortunately, those tendencies can amplify the worst in us. But we don’t need to tolerate asholism for the sake of entertainment, its never worth it.
I feel like we tolerated the assholes of the time because, immature though they were, they were the life of the party, which was “the point” of gaming for a demographic, to be the exact opposite of work in every way.
Hard disagree there, particularly as someone who worked in the industry, has a gay kid, and worked with women in the industry. The ‘frat boy’ stuff was amusing to 13 year old fans, sure, but it was abusive, cruel, and awful to be anywhere near. There’s a billion different ways to achieve the same objective without being homophobic, sexist, etc, like say this masterpiece response to said ad.
Lol that’s awful. 2009?!
Yes, and I really hope more people see this. It was an embarrassment, and people tried to quickly forget. Before they did though, we got to see the absolute art piece that was the Battlefield teams response.
Yeah that’s actually funny. Calling it FRAGS is just the icing.
Now that it’s less broken, I’ve been playing Cyberpunk a lot and it feels like edgy shit done correctly. All the big tough guys are actually just weirdos enamored with the sound of their own voice, the ads are ludicrously over the top, it’s bloody, and everyone’s a human being. I haven’t felt gross with any of the content in it so far and it has at least as many strippers as Duke 3D had. I think the loud edgelords keep trying to paint it as free speech vs censorship but it’s really about not making players complicit in whatever infantile world view the director has.
I’m 41 now, so I was around for all that stuff. I must admit, I love those old ’90s and early ’00s games like Duke Nukem. I was also going through puberty at the time, so there’s that nostalgic factor.
I don’t think those days are ever coming back, and I’m okay with that. I enjoyed those games at the time, but I can now see how others may have found them offensive—something I never really considered back then. Many of those ads and games were a product of their time, reflecting the MTV era, which, as we know, eventually gave way to reality TV, for better or worse.
These days, it seems like we’ve evolved in some ways but regressed in others, with thousands of porn games on Steam, which is definitely not my thing. I appreciate that the industry has matured and is now more inclusive and diverse. While there’s still room for improvement, I’m glad to see that gaming can offer more sophisticated and varied content that appeals to a broader audience.
…and let’s be fair, it’s an ad so the corpo bullshit is mandatory.
I dunno if corpos hiding under sex and drugs to lure people to their corpo products is a great reality either.
Maybe not, but damn it, that’s our reality. I kind of like it better than the hollow virtue signaling these days. And of course it would be great if corporations could actually be virtuous, but apparently that’s been litigated away.
Maybe not but it’s certainly more entertaining. This ad doesn’t make me want a PlayStation, it makes me want to go out and party
Just maybe with a bit less sex appeal?
Counter point: sex appeal is fine.
It’s the people who are pushy irl who are the problem. IMO you can still be very “sexy” and as long as you don’t push it, that’s not a problem.
Said to another commenter as well, but listen I’m not going to respond to a woman saying an ad is gross and off putting by telling her to lighten up.
Go ahead. Down votes are meaningless here.
Edit: keep em coming gargles
Seriously, that is not the message this ad is putting out. It’s about PlayStation being a drug, like ecstasy pills
Your right it’s not clever but it’s pretty clear it’s nothing to do with woman being sluts.
You seriously can’t see how this is sexualizing women?
Not the OP, but I for once can’t. She’s not sexualized in any way.
Remove the pills on her tongue and this is your typical porn-shoot picture. Lucky you I guess for not seeing that.
I’m a woman and this is what gaming used to be: women are sluts.
Why is this saying the woman is a prostitute?
What is wrong if she was one?
semi trolling.
No, the imagery was supposed to invoke the rave culture at the time. Lots of men, women, boys, and girls doing X, and the pills usually were white like that.
Did you just mansplain how to take this ad?
She asked a question. It was answered.
It was a serious problem for a long time. Late 90’s/early 2000’s E3 and game shows were greasy.
I remember gaming magazines running whole sections just on the “best booth babes” of the season.
Late 90’s/early 2000’s E3 and game shows were greasy
I posted this elsewhere, but people pretend like that just ended abruptly in 2005, but I want people to always remember this shit. That’s 2009, not 1999, gross.
Oh yeah, the culture was toxic af. Lots of folks never grew out of the toxicity. Granted it was preexisting toxicity coopted and reinforced in the gaming culture, not created by it. We’re in a much better place in that regard these days.
People arguing with you without acknowledging that this was just an ad in a sea of sexist as fuck ads. Maybe is not as sexist as the average one, but still.
Your homophobia/sex negativity is noted.
Given this is a print ad, I think the primary payload is just “SEX DRUGS AND ROCK & ROLL” shouted as loud as it can to get the reader to stop flipping through the magazine and actually look at it, and then once it’s got the reader by the foveas it then says “Sony Playstation 2. Circle Cross Triangle Square.”
PS2 launched in late 2000 so this ad would be targeting tween, teen and young adult millennial boys and men, so the secondary payload here is to associate the PS2 brand with thoughts and imagery that demographic is interested in or curious about, such as clubs/raves/parties, girls, sex, party drugs, and sex with girls on party drugs at a club or rave and thus transfer some of that interest/curiosity to itself.
The tertiary payload would be to use association with more grown up imagery (also during this time were ads featuring four condoms in see-through packets bent into the Circle-Cross-Triangle-Square shapes among others) to set themselves apart from Nintendo, who generally maintains an all-ages friendly image, and especially during the GameCube era when they revealed The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker to much fan backlash at the “childish, cartoony” graphics. The PS2 looked more like a piece of AV equipment than Nintendo’s Barney The Dinosaur purple box, and could play audio CDs and DVD movies, VERY important socializing tools for teens in the 2000s.
Bottom line is it FUCKING worked. The PS2 sold like toilet paper. Sony sold 155 million PS2s worldwide, Outselling the GameCube (21.7 million and the Wii (101.7 million) combined And they did it with ads that said “Hey, if you’re grown up and with it enough to recognize what this chick is doing, ours is the game console for you.”
Bottom line is it FUCKING worked. The PS2 sold like toilet paper.
You really didn’t need the ads. PS2 absolutely dominated because they were the ones with the all of the huge publishers. Sega, Nintendo, and Microsoft couldn’t hold a candle to the sheer amount of great exclusives. It was only when Xbox 360 and later the Wii came out did the console wars start to shift.
You could present your valid argument without calling in homophobia.
It was this webcomic that put this idea in my head and I just can’t stop seeing it everywhere “I don’t like this because I’m a woman” comes up. The original commenter also slut shamed the model in the ad which is why I figure it’s either homophobia or sex negativity in general.
But yeah yeah I know homophobia is bad and you can’t accuse women of being bad.
The answers to your comments are depressing. Good luck with everything!
Removed by mod
If you see this girl as a slut, that’s a you issue lol. Might want to do some therapy about that.
Our games are as good as drugs.
PS2 is retro now? Damn, getting old really does sneak up on you.
Ps3 is starting to be referenced as retro now…
That one does hurt
But also, people wondered why our generation loved taking drugs and being weird fucks…
When ‘next gen’ (eg. PS5) becomes the new ‘current gen’, then the old ‘last gen’ becomes retro.
I found my Green game boy Pocket and saw the 1989-1996 copyright.
It looks so pristine. 😭😭😭
It has been for a long time.
I feel like it means: we are not like Nintendo, we make video games for adults (and children who want to play like adults).
Also, our games are as good as drugs.
Sony’s version of the classic Sega “Genesis does what Nintendon’t”
Man, everyone was in on it during this era, even Nintendo
Everything reminds me of her…
I find this funny, since I used to hide drugs like mushrooms inside consoles. I figured it was the one place literally no one would think to look. Just unscrewed them, put a baggie inside in one of those empty spaces (there’s always a spot), and put the case back together.
Can someone make a version of this photo, but its acetaminophen and the girl is just up-aged to how old she’d be now?
thyroid medication
Not much can top the 3DFX VooDoo graphics card boxes.
Love it.
“Hey, you know what would be a good way to advertise our system? Let’s just give children nightmares for about 40 seconds and then splash our logo on the screen at the end.”
It worked because I still remember it now ;)
I think most ads for consoles in the early 2000s were like that, at least for ps1, ps2 and the original xbox. Not necessarily nightmare fuel, just “weird” stuff unrelated to the console or games.
Watching this gave me Aphex Twin vibes. Then I discovered it was directed by Chris Cunningham. So yeah, that’s why
Oh wow, that explains a lot!
90s SEGA was the OG of this, we need 90s SEGA back
Coffee?
Tea?
SEGA!!!
SEGA!!!
I heard this.
On the switch you can get the same rush of the times of yore
I don’t think an ad with this kind of imagery would fly today
