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Israel is a product of European Colonization. It predates WW1 and WW2. After learning more about it, IMO it shouldn’t exist as it does today.
Jews and Christians and Muslims lived in the area since the religions were invented, we don’t need a European colony to still exist.
Jews and Christians and Muslims lived in the area since the religions were invented
Under strict Authoritarian Muslim rule. The Jews and Christians didn’t exactly have a lot of power in the area.
A European colony that displaced native folks is basically… everything.
Muslims are known for their tolerance towards other religions. That’s why all around the middle east you have thriving communities of pluralism.
muslims can’t even get along amongst themselves lmao, just look at syria ( do i even need to elaborate?) or suni vs shi (saudi arabia vs iran) or yemen where not a single jew exists today or jordan which fought Palestinianians regularly or Lebanon which was once a christian majority or sudan or iraq or qatar which has literal slaves
seriously muslims are known for tolerance? are you high?
I really don’t know how I could have phrased it more obviously ironic. But I guess you’re that dense lol
Maybe you are high?
Only a couple generations separate Auschwitz and Al-Shifa. The lesson we can draw from this is that ethnostates will always end in misery
nah, “the lesson to draw was that the Nazis clearly had the right intentions but the wrong targets, tho it was the Jews fault they got captured and killed in concentration camps” ~current Israeli ruling coalition when talking about the victims of the holocaust.
most of the Jews that went and settled in Israel after the Holocaust were primarily from regions that Nazis never occupied, they came to create their ethno-state, ironically they also despise the survivors as failures who didn’t fight back, even more ironically most of the survivors of the Holocaust were critics of the Zionists (who could have guessed the victims of fervent nationalism actually had something against that very same thing?).
I think that’s the funniest/saddest aspect of all this. My kids are half Jewish. My ex-wife is Jewish so needless to say I am well aware of the complexity of the history surrounding Israel and Palestine.
But damn if Jews have lost the plot.
Agreed, but let’s use the term z*onist because there are plenty of Jews who denounce this despicable regime.
Even the history of zionism is more complex, and it has been captured by the worst demons of the ideology.
Sure, it’s inherently problematic for anyone who values the separation of state and religion, and in a modern political landscape it does read like a recipe for disaster. Based on the old testament and Jewish history however, it’s easy to see the romantic appeal of Zion without it at all justifying the terrors of modern zionism.
So I agree with your point completely - I just wouldn’t treat Zion as a slur. That said I also don’t think zionism in its contemporary form has any legitimate role to play, and it’s a cancer on the world like so many isms before it.
Respectfully disagree. This ain’t about Zionism although it definitely plays a big part.
What’s it really about?
Assuming you’re not baiting it’s an extremely complex answer of which there are a multitude of factors including but not limited to
- Religious exceptionalism (they are the chosen children of G-d)
- Inability to adequately separate religious identity from cultural identity (a criticism of one is a criticism of the other)
- Right wing lunacy (fuck Benjamin)
- Superiority complex (see point one)
- Historical prescident removing ability to discuss
For each of these points there is a lot and I mean a fuckton of nuance. But as someone who has spent the better part of 20 years in and around the community despite all the good people and caring people and loving people there is this underbelly that can do no wrong and cannot be reasoned with. There is a part in any conversation around the discussion of Israel and Palestine where there is no dialogue.
In that, both sides have failed spectacularly but it has to be stated that only one side has the full unequivocal support of the US government and yet still behaves like a bully in the playground because of something that happened years ago.
Hurt people hurt people. I would argue that Jews as a people continue to have trauma from WW2.
Now before anyone flips their shit remember that people are entitled their opinions and regardless of if you agree or disagree I’d like to think when it comes to what I have experienced those opinions are valid.
Well, some Jews have lost the plot, and certainly Jewish communities are not immune to the sociological conditions that drive people towards segregationist politics and even genocides.
That is to say, we all lost the plot, but we love capitalism and imperialism more than we fear watching society devolve into hate, genocide and warfare.
The IDF took to annihilating Gaza like SWAT in the US to COD gamers in poor communities. If that’s not a sign to reconsider our priorities, I don’t know what is. But it certainly implies we’re still savage apes not ready for the big leagues of civilization and exploration.
But damn if Jews have lost the plot.
Please don’t buy into the Israeli narrative that what they’re doing represents all of us. I’m a Jew, but I’m not an Israeli, and recognize that Hamas and the Israeli government both suck.
Agree. I’m generalizing there and I know there’s a large amount of Jews that are extremely upset and do not support Netanyahu.
They don’t. There’s 600 jews in the town of Hebron, population 215,000.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch/a-guided-tour-of-hebron-from-two-sides-of-the-occupation
A source for the story. Despite the population imbalance the garbage-throwing (and acid pouring) is apparently true.
I don’t know why you’re getting downvoted for giving fairly accurate population numbers.
We can criticize Israel, while condemning Hamas terrorists
And we can make aid to Israel contingent on future improvements on the treatment of Palestinians.
(And prosecute the IDF and Israeli state in international Court for crimes against humanity)
I like this, we should do this, for sure. Nobody can claim it’s unfair.
At this point, I would argue that Israel has done more for Hamas PR and popularity than anything in the last 20 years.
I was pissed off at Israel when I learned that we can’t have a single-payer Health Care Program because we are too busy funding the one Israel has. Learning how they treat Palestinians just puts a seal on the fuck Israel deal.
Israel is a little bigger in area and population than the SF Bay Area. We don’t lack single payer health care because we are paying for Israel’s. We don’t have it because our government is in the pockets of those who benefit from us not having it.
Oh I understand that, but I do despise the hypocrisy that America Rejects single-payer healthcare claiming that they can’t afford it, but they are willing to fund it for people who are not our people. Charity is one thing, but foreign aid should never come at the expense of One’s Own people. While I understand the situation is bigger and more complicated than that, and that most foreign aid is just code for funding military operations and bases, it’s still irks me that a single Cent is being given out in foreign aid when we have people who are starving and dying on the streets.
I would be all for America first if it actually meant anything outside of a racist dog whistle.
There is absolutely nothing the US does in regards to foreign policy that comes at the expense of accessible healthcare. The US already spends more per capita than any other country.
Because individual purchases (bandages, pills, hospital bed rental) costs over twice as much in the States than it does anywhere else. And those who do afford it get inferior care.
Breaks your heart doesn’t it?
The US actually spends more public money on healthcare per capita than almost any other country. And then Americans pay for private insurance on top of it. And for all that, many Americans don’t even get healthcare. Contrary to libertarian propaganda, a publicly funded program is more efficient, as are many publicly funded services over their privatized alternatives.
Well obviously, a public refunded program seeks only to fulfill the goals of the program. Meanwhile a private organization is not beholden to customers or workers, but to shareholders
Fun fact: We also built a single-payer system in Iraq.
We can also condem israel for creating this entire situation
Blame the British and the holy scrolls.
I mean, I suppose if you ignore all history up until like a few weeks ago that makes sense.
the same israel which offered countless peace offers to the Palestinians(which promptly rejected them) or the same israel that literally pulled out of gaza entirely leaving them the full option to make a thriving city state like Singapore, but instead they decided to buy guns and rockets and make everyone’s life miserable?
Do you think if Hamas dissappear tomorrow, those who throw garbage will stop?
If the elements of Hamas, namely the promising of death to all Israelites from Palestinians disappeared, then relations would improve and yes the garbage would stop. But it would still be a process that takes time to build trust between the people.
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I don’t agree with your analogy.
What I said was more along the line of, “America electing a black president is a major step to eliminating racism, and it wouldn’t happen overnight.” I’d point out that I’m just fixing your analogy, not that I am making that statement.
Part of the systematic change requires one side to not want the complete elimination of the other.
Remind me how did the the reservations in the US go for people like the Osage even after they signed treaties? Oklahoma is still Indian country, right?
You’d have to be braindead to believe that. This is a 70 year ongoing conflict.
The reverse. If the garbage throwers stopped, if the Israeli state ensured that Palestinians were treated humanely and were ensured civil rights (say in accordance with the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights) then Palestinians would have no need for revolutionary organizations like Hamas or Hezbollah. But so long as the Israeli state disregards the suffering of Palestinians, so long as Israelis are allowed to commit violence against Palestinians, so long as the IDF seeks to massacre Palestinians, there will be need for militants to fight against them, and so Hamas and Hezbollah will find cause and find recruits among the friends and family slain in Israel’s name.
The thing is we all know this. This is COIN 101 material from two to four centuries ago. And short of the threat of nuclear holocaust, humans historically are eager to hate more than they are willing to do what is right to create and preserve peace. Netanyahu and the IDF have demonstrated to be no different, even when the US warned them of its own hard-learned lessons in Fallujah. Gaza is proving to be even worse than was predicted.
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And why do you think they hate Jews?
Because of how Israelis treat them.
That conflict may have lasted 70 years, but those citizens certainly haven’t.
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For the last 2500 years, the Jews have been the bad guys. That’s why they’re worthy of hatred
Speaking of naïve…
The internet has demonstrated the people of seperate nations don’t hate each other intrinsically, but are driven to hate by rhetoric and doctrine fueled by precarity or adversity.
Regardless, my prescription comes from classic COIN philosophy, not identity politics propaganda. Besides, if bullies — those with the capacity to decide whether or not to cast garbage on thosr weaker than they — continue tonharm when they choose to stop, it is their behavior that fuels hatred and justifies their reputation.
Plenty of jews are kind and even protest the IDF offensives. But those who toss rubbish on Hebron Palestinians are showing a different character.
It’s not black and white.
Ted Kaczynski made a lot of really solid points, but bombing people, especially civilians, is wrong.
People still cheer for Luke Skywalker though.
Humans are more tribalistic than rational. They pick sides and justify later.
The Death Star was a military installation that had already shown itself to be aggressive with death tolls in the literal billions. Not a fair comparison.
To be fair, Tarkin misused what was clearly a mining tool. Planets are too valuable a resource to blast into high-velocity debris. The Tarkin doctrine only works if Imperial policy is fair to begin with (which it isn’t) otherwise it is the reverse of common COIN theory (hearts and minds).
Tarkin behaved stupidly and provoked a terrorist attack that successfully (and spectacularly) disabled a huge Imperial asset.
Yeah I never understood that about star wars, like why are they so keen on blowing up planets. I know that’s an incredibly evil thing to do, but what the hell did they get out of it?
I actually like the sequels, but the fact that every threat had to be a planet destroyer, despite the fact that that makes absolutely no fucking sense to anyone trying to establish long-term dominance over a region, just made no fucking sense.
I think Lucas was simply looking for a nuclear analogy or something comparable to the carpet bombing the U S did in Vietnam and Cambodia. It needed to look like it made sense.
That said, the Death Star is easy to retroactively justify. There are plenty of planets / dwarf planets / large rocks that have tasty minerals in their core, and are not otherwise usable for settlement or even an outpost. A super-laser would be a great tool at lower power settings to crack such rocks open to save on drilling, much the way hydraulic fracturing is used today. If the Imperial government is more inclined towards military spending than civilian projects, it then makes sense to sell it as a Mother Of All Lasers wrap it in a mobile space base.
That’s how it goes in my headcanon, but like the IMPS videos, the troops are allowed to put sexy nose art on their mechanized armor.
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Yeah but the second time it wasn’t even finished yet. They were still under construction.
It was pretty clear what the purpose of it was.
I’m just saying, a construction job of that magnitude would require a hell of a lot more manpower than the Imperial army had to offer. I’ll bet there were independent contractors working on that thing.
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And Luke didn’t have anything to do with the second Death Star being blown up. That was Lando and Wedge.
EDIT: I guess he helped getting the shield down. They wouldn’t have gotten the Ewoks on their side if Luke didn’t levitate Threepio.
We can condemn violence, while recognizing that it didn’t come about in a total vacuum as people play it up as to paint Palestinians as evil terrorists.
Correct. Hamas is an evil terrorist group that slaughters innocent people and also Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinian people and need to stop, or be stopped. But not by killing random people, because this isn’t the bronze age anymore.
No, seriously - give me a good reason to condemn Hamas. As long as they are the only ones willing to lift a damn finger against a white supremacist settler-colonialist state they will receive no condemnation from me.
this combined with the orders from IDF that under no circumstances were celebrations or signs of joy allowed when prisoners were returned to their families; fucking ghouls.
prisoners, why were they prisoners again? oh yea that’s right becuase they were literal terrorist
do you want examples? maybe the women who drove with a full gas tank into an israeli border checkpoint near Jerusalem and blew up half her face as well as a police officer’s face and chest - asra jabas, look her up
Calling Israel’s apartheid “modern” to me kind of implies that South Africa’s apartheid, whose transitional period ended in 1994, was somehow “ancient” or “old-fashioned”… Yeah, you can rest assured that apartheid/segregation always has been far too modern.
I mean… It ended. Almost 30 years ago. So it’s not happening in the modern day.
30 years was so long ago.
Flip phones, PAY PHONES and pagers!
That’s how long ago it was.I agree as I do not consider my IBM PS/1 25mhz system to be a modern computer.
I own a flip phone now, I pay with my phone and pagers are alive and well at the hospital I work at. Just saying…
“ended”
Also South Africa still has massive problems between white and black people. I watched a documentary a few years ago where I black paralympian travelled round South Africa to see how things had changed and he was stunned that black people live in shanty towns outside major cities still, also the guy was shown a rich area with private security patrols and high walled residences and the security kept coming back to look at him, basically not trusting him there.
Intergenerational poverty can be extremely hard to break out from. It isn’t helped by the fact that wealth in this planet is finite with most of it trickling upwards.
That’s because you can’t fix the mess caused by capitalism, colonialism, fascism and white supremacism with feel-good liberal fairy tales.
I was thinking about this recently and it won’t happen given the current climate but what Palestinians need is their own Truth and Reconciliation just like South Africans did. Codify that shit.
Truth and Reconciliation
As a South African I wouldn’t recommend it. We essentially allowed all the murderers, torturers and rapists to get off scott free so that “business as usual” - ie, the looting and pillaging of South Africa’s mineral resources - wouldn’t be disrupted too much.
We literally have gigantic gaps in our history because the Nat regime was allowed to perpetrate one of the largest orgies of evidence destruction in known history while the TRC wasn’t even allowed to subpoena people to testify about anything - and now we still sit with a white population that sees no reason to confront what was done in their name and are pretty much still just as white supremacist as their grandparents were.
It’s only a solution to the liberal types that want to sell feel-good propaganda and little else.
My GF is Zulu and she’s pro T&R so I imagine YMMV.
I can definitely understand your position.
From a layman Canadian where our indigenous people did the same thing it’s only as powerful as the weight and teeth it’s given.
I have a 2200 AMD Sempron running windows XP for nostalgia. This computer is by no means a modern PC. No one in their right mind would consider it modern. Yet it was originally manufactured after 1994. By your logic, it is a modern PC.
Something can be “not-modern” without being ancient.
I mean, if your measure of modernity is just how good home computers were back then, rather than that any substantial number of people had home computers at all, then of course 1994 is going to seem non-modern.
I guess I have a skewed perception of how long ago 1994 was, though, because 1995 was when my parents first came into contact with each other from opposite sides of the globe, through the ol’ information superhighway. For me that makes 1994 seem incredibly recent, even if it was nearly 30 years ago and a lot has changed since then. The '90s were this whole decade of pop culture, technology, and political and social change whose shadow I grew up in, basically the beginning of what I would consider in most contexts to be the “modern day”. But if I had actually been alive and conscious at the time, then maybe I would be more practically aware of the differences between then and now, and hesitate to call it “modern”.
But modernity always is relative. If I were talking specifically about computers, then obviously even a computer from as recently as 2008 would really be stretching the definition of “modern”. But then in another context I might even say that something that happened in 1898 would’ve been “recent”, though I wouldn’t necessarily refer to that as “modern” per se.
Put another way, an apparent slim majority of the world’s population (but not of South Africa’s population) was alive when Nelson Mandela took office. Probably a lot of them were infants or small children at the time, but still: even for the people who weren’t alive at that time, or who were too young to really remember it personally, there are so many people who were very alive and very conscious at the time, that everyone’s bound to know a good few. My mom attended anti-apartheid protests when she was in college, for instance. Mandela himself was president until 1999, and only died in 2013, which it’s hard to believe was already ten years ago.
Zionists: “they Made us do it!”
Opposing Israel is not the action of a neo-nazi, it is the action of someone who is disgusted by Nazis.
The situation is being framed as the false dichotomy of “Pro-Israel” or “Pro-Palestine” when the real distinction is “Pro-Israel” or “Pro human rights and international law”.
We simply cannot abide by the Israeli idea that the Israelites are a people so much better than anyone else, that they are allowed to dictate who is just and who is not period They have become the very Nazis that persecuted the Jews back in the 40s
so Palestine is pro human rights and international law??? need i remind you of the failed rocket launch (aimed at israeli civilians) that misfired, hit and killed many Palestinians at the hospital in gaza??
That’s a perfect exemplification of the logical fallacy I mentioned! Thank you.
Garbage and rocks. Don’t forget rocks
But I’ve been informed by a bunch of friendly folks from reddit that throwing rocks is a highly dangerous major criminal offense, trialed by the military, in Israel.
/s
I’m starting to think some of these Israelis aren’t the nicest people
That’s racist!
“Israeli” is not a race.
Damn races I can’t even keep track. Does that make me racist ? ???
/s
Whoop! That’s awful antisemitic of you, apparently.
Disgusting. Imagine you are walking around minding your business and a Zionist throws his trash on your head.
Israel treats Palestinians worse than animals.
Folks please, please go and google “Jewish population of hebron”. You are being fed lies and you’re eating it all up because you really want to cheer for the underdog.
I found the original source of the photo: It is an article by “The New Yorker” from 2019 that confirms and explains the situation.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch/a-guided-tour-of-hebron-from-two-sides-of-the-occupation
[…] Hebron, in an area where about thirty thousand Palestinians—a fraction of the number who used to live here—live under direct Israeli military rule, which protects fewer than a thousand Israeli settlers. This part of the city is freely accessible to Israeli citizens and foreigners, but most Palestinians can enter only if they’re residents.
[…]
For a second it felt like we were in a covered market, but this was because the street is fenced in from the top, with a sort of wire net intended to protect the Palestinian traders and their customers from rocks, bottles, and trash thrown by Israeli settlers who live on the street just above. Amro pointed at metal sheeting placed over a section of the net; it is meant to guard against acid that settlers pour down, to destroy the goods sold here.
[…]
In 1997, as part of the Oslo peace process, Israel and the Palestinian Authority drew a line splitting Hebron in two. The area designated as H-1 is controlled by the Palestinian Authority; in H-2, the Palestinian Authority has civil administration over Palestinian residents and the Israeli military controls everything else. H-1 is far larger, and in the past two years its population has roughly doubled, while H-2’s has dwindled because settler violence and I.D.F. restrictions have made life unbearable for Palestinians. But H-2 contains the city’s historic center, its most popular square, and its wholesale, vegetable, spice, and other markets—all of them now hollowed out. The market street through which Amro leads his tour hits a dead end at the border between H-1 and H-2. Here, though, the border is also vertical: the market street is in H-1; the street directly above is in H-2. This is why the protective net and metal sheeting are necessary.
Whoa what the fuck, they’re also pouring acid down on these poor people?? The fuck is wrong with them?!
Religion
I’ll take this source over a screenshot of a twitter comment.
I literally googled that and this was the top result.
“Hebron is home to approximately 200,000 Palestinians, as well as 700 or so Jewish settlers. However, 20 percent of the city is under direct Israeli control, and Palestinians living in it, or passing through it, are subjected to checkpoints and a ban from travelling on several main streets, unlike the Jewish settlers.”
Yes! Exactly! There are 200 thousand people living in hebron and Seven Hundred of them are Jews. Who do you think lives in a ghetto there? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying these settlers aren’t assholes who may throw trash or rocks, I’m sure many other cities have communities of assholes. But making this out to be apartheid?! Come on.
Given historical trends the people in the ghettos are people who do not have control of the government of the region. Who do you think has better control of the region, Palestine barely holding itself together or Isreal with monitary and military backing of the united states?
Go check out who Mahmoud Abas is and where he lives and come back to discuss how Palestine is barely holding itself together.
Yeah, the bourgeois ruling class lives in luxury while common people live in relative squalor. This is nothing new.
Using the living conditions of the ruling class to represent the general state of a country is extremely dishonest.
If Palestine is as well of as you are you are trying to insinuate you would have used the living conditions of the masses rather than exclusively pointing to the most powerful man in the country to make your point.
Wait, if you agree that their “ruling class” is living in splendor. Where is your apartheid argument? Shouldn’t you be critisizing the Palestinian ruling class for not taking care of the general state of their country?
200 thousand people living in hebron and Seven Hundred of them are Jews.
But making this out to be apartheid?! Come on.
Uhhhhhhhh… This is meant to be ironic or…? Yes, pushing members of a minority group to live in a specific city/area densely packed primarily by themselves which they do not govern… is apartheid. I could say “Look, only 100 white people lived in X neighborhood while 100,000 black people lived there in South Africa! How is that apartheid?” and it’d sound pretty ridiculous.
Uhhhhhh… Hebron is mostly governed by the Palestinian authority. It is in fact their capital. Jewish people can’t really access most parts of the city. It’s actually pretty prosperous city which is what you get when you don’t devulge 100% of your funds developing terror infrastructure.
Does it hurt being this willfully stupid?
Man, it’s too bad those Jews are forced to live there. Just awful.
Article from 2021. Al Monitor is a left center leaning Arabic News paper with High Credibility and High factual reporting. See the following link: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/al-monitor/
Please provide your counter proof.
His counter proof is, and I quote from one of his comments from a few days ago: “I’m a Jew living in Israel and currently serving in active duty. I have a house and a family and a pretty good life here”.
lmao wtf
Oh, look… the hasbara has finally shown up.
What’s the matter… slow day at the shill farm?
no you don’t understand! The 600 Jews in Hebron rule with an iron fist over the 215,000 arabs!
According to google, the population of Hebron is about 215,000 of which approximately 600 are jews. This post is a lie.
This comment below has some good context and explains why the comment above is disinformation:
Israel has a right to defend itself.
I’m sure they have a right to throw garbage at random civilians
Yeah, those dead babies were coming right at them.
There were secret Hamas tunnels under those babies!
Anyone has a right to defend themselves. Yet there is a very fine line between self defense and aggression.
If you punch the lights out to some idiot that is threatning you, you’re defending yourself.
If the other guy drops to the ground and you kick their teeth out and then go find their family to do the same to them, that is aggression.
You mean like the Palestinian violent attacks against Israeli settlers in Hebron? Or are those attacks justified?
What I stated goes both ways: none of the parts involved can justify their actions at this point, both have blood on their hands and there is no true interest in making amends and settling differences for the sake of sparing lives and creating peace.
Eek a hospital get it!
Did the premature babies being kept alive with tin foil after the attack condem Hamas?
Palestine has a right to defend itself.
I don’t get the point of trotting out this old chestnut. Is anyone arguing that Israel does not have the right to defend itself?
No. The concern is the manner and proportionality of the defense. Both of which are barbaric and over the top.
Palestinian civilians do not, then?
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Israel is the agressor
Okay Boomer.
Is it too late to say I forgot the /s?
Nah, not your fault. The sarcasm was quite obvious.
Nah, it sounded like a typical comment from a closed-minded Israel supporter so yeah too late.
Fuck Israel.
Lol and this is self defense how?
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https://youtu.be/aEdGcej-6D0?t=8m56s
Fuck israel. All my homies hate israel
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Nah fuck this shit. Murdering people who were celebrating love and music is inexcusable. I have so much affection for the electronic music scene and the peace and acceptance it promotes. A lot of those people were probably tripping on psychedelics. What a horrific way to go. Fuck Hamas.
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What do the palestinians throw back?
